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Old 04-03-2020, 09:30 PM   #261
frank808
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Originally Posted by cmrdgrs View Post
My thought on this is that although the resort is open, the renter can't travel due to quarantines in place, and airlines restricting travel due to Covid-19.

To Use Hawaii as an Example: It's all well and good the resort might be open (like the Marriot KoOlina), but if the renter can't get on a plane and get there from their origination point that really doesn't do the renter very much good that the resort is open.

AND to boot even if the renter gets to Hawaii the Governor of Hawaii has a mandatory 14-day quarantine for any residents or visitors who return/come to Hawaii. That doesn't do the renter very much good if they only have a 7 day stay at the rental The renter should not have to pay to fly to a different state to be quarantined when they can just stay home to and be quarantined
Is not wanting to travel the fault of the owner that provided the unit? Is it owners responsibility to provide transportation to the unit?

While I sympathize that the renter will be under a 14 day quarantine, how is it owners fault? It is the government enacting a quarantine and not owner. Owner has provided the accommodations for the renter to use during the time that is rented. If renter does not want to stay in quarantine or travel on plane, that is what CFAR travel insurance is for.

Great discussion here as we all have pretty much nothing to do while under stay at home order. Again, thanks for the food as we have just eaten the last of it except for the cheese and some chicken.
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Old 04-04-2020, 12:08 AM   #262
mditkof
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Can you provide an article or names involved? I'm not a lawyer, but I love this type of stuff and I'm always interested reading why courts make the decisions they make.
I suspect that the doctrine of Failure of Essential Purpose may come into play which would likely favor the renter over the owner, but every state has different rules.

Marty
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Old 04-04-2020, 08:14 AM   #263
cmrdgrs
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frank808 View Post
Is not wanting to travel the fault of the owner that provided the unit? Is it owners responsibility to provide transportation to the unit?

While I sympathize that the renter will be under a 14 day quarantine, how is it owners fault? It is the government enacting a quarantine and not owner. Owner has provided the accommodations for the renter to use during the time that is rented. If renter does not want to stay in quarantine or travel on plane, that is what CFAR travel insurance is for.

Great discussion here as we all have pretty much nothing to do while under stay at home order. Again, thanks for the food as we have just eaten the last of it except for the cheese and some chicken.
I don't think this is necessarily a case of a renter not wanting to travel, so much as they can't travel. Under "normal times" if the renter just did not want to travel, obviously, no RedWeek would not side with the renter. Covid-19 has created an unprecedented global problem disrupting the entire travel industry. IMO, this all goes back to "reasonable expectation" that probably isn't addressed in the contract. In order for the renter to fulfill their end of the contract and use the unit, they would have to have the reasonable expectation that they can travel freely to use the unit. Due to issues outside of the renters control, they can't travel freely.

As I said, I'm not a lawyer, but I think a court would side with the renter. RedWeek obviously feels the same. But, if owners in this position do get together and sue it would be interesting to see what happens in court.
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Old 04-04-2020, 08:17 AM   #264
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Originally Posted by mditkof View Post
I suspect that the doctrine of Failure of Essential Purpose may come into play which would likely favor the renter over the owner, but every state has different rules.

Marty
I haven't heard that term before [failure of essential]. Care to expend on this with a further explanation/example?
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Old 04-04-2020, 03:03 PM   #265
mditkof
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I haven't heard that term before [failure of essential]. Care to expend on this with a further explanation/example?
Just Google the term Failure of Essential Purpose in contract breach claims. It generally applies to products but, at times, applies to services. It is a common breach of contract term in litigation by us lawyers and is used when a party argues that they should be relieved of their responsibilities. For products, UCC 2.719(2) is the starting point.

Marty

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Old 04-04-2020, 10:58 PM   #266
Jeb
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For future rentals, is it possible to rent points with full disclosure that they could be worthless if disney closes the resort, list the expiration date, and not violate the contract law example?

I feel like its ethical if you go out of your way to identify the risks, but I know that doesn't automatically make it legal.
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Old 04-04-2020, 11:24 PM   #267
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For future rentals, is it possible to rent points with full disclosure that they could be worthless if disney closes the resort, list the expiration date, and not violate the contract law example?

I feel like its ethical if you go out of your way to identify the risks, but I know that doesn't automatically make it legal.
Likely as long as the parties have equal negotiating leverage. The doctrines like Failure of Essential Purpose are generally gap fillers used by courts when the contract is silent on some risk allocation or something way out of the parties’ contemplation. Think of renting a room at OKW from an owner and OKW burns down 3 days before you leave for the resort; seems that the existence of OKW would be an essential purpose to the contract that has failed.

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Old 04-05-2020, 08:41 AM   #268
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I took a look at the rental board yesterday. It's interesting to see how owners are adapting to new circumstances with published policies that address the current uncertainty. Some are, some aren't.

Now that it's known this could happen (and may well happen again until we get things settled), I think it would be very unwise to enter into any agreement as an owner or renter that doesn't spell what happens in the case of a resort shutdown (or park shutdown that doesn't affect resorts) or the inability of a person to travel.

As with any private transaction, I suspect the wisdom of not spending money (or allocating points) you can't afford to lose comes into play.

Dirk
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Old 04-05-2020, 08:53 AM   #269
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I took a look at the rental board yesterday. It's interesting to see how owners are adapting to new circumstances with published policies that address the current uncertainty. Some are, some aren't.

Now that it's known this could happen (and may well happen again until we get things settled), I think it would be very unwise to enter into any agreement as an owner or renter that doesn't spell what happens in the case of a resort shutdown (or park shutdown that doesn't affect resorts) or the inability of a person to travel.

As with any private transaction, I suspect the wisdom of not spending money (or allocating points) you can't afford to lose comes into play.

Dirk
Yep. When I was asked if I would rent out my points to someone, I took the example agreement from here and added in a clause about in the event of a full parks closure &/or resort closure. It was clunky but we’d already discussed it in emails, so just there for our mutual benefit.
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Old 04-05-2020, 09:43 AM   #270
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Hey, I love honest, deliberate debate. I appreciate hearing various views on matters. I also don't think we are too far off , we might have subtle differences in where the responsibility lies for unforeseen events. My overall perspective is that a contract is supposed to clearly set terms so that both parties understand what risk they are taking, in which case, the verbiage in the contract matters.

Cheers! ...now let me kindly address a misperception in my posts that I just read

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You can disagree all you want blueviper about contracts not being voided if they are overly restrictive. It happens. All the time. DH and I personally won a lawsuit based on a contract that was overly restrictive [the entity was an HOA]. My case started in the lower court by being thrown out due to the court stating we had no standing. DH and I persisted, our case went all the way to the AZ Supreme Court, and we won. But, believe me, the pain, suffering and financial havoc my family went though wasn't worth "winning" -- If I had it to do it over again, I would just walk away and not bring a lawsuit.

I'm sorry, I don't see what a set week or points has to do with anything.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. Because you aren't going to change my mind and I'm probably not going to change yours.
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