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Old 06-21-2014, 11:59 AM   #1
brp
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Default The low carb lifestyle and weight/health control - June

Per Kim's request, a new thread is born. Time to throw in more controversy about this whole approach.

In doing this, we've moved away from carbs, with the bulk of calories coming from fat and protein. All working very well on all counts.

Some recent (and not so recent) research, however, points to possible negative implications for high protein (and I'm not even talking about "so that that the liver is in danger" levels) and further to the sources of the protein.

It seems that protein stimulates production of IGF-1, which has been linked to cancer. It certanly seems that higher levels of IGF-1 exacerbate an existing cancer, and reducing levels slows growth. There's also some evidence that elevated levels can increase the risk for cancer.

http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/...2814%2900062-X

(The diabetes link in he above is interesting...and questionable)

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-food-science/

Also, it seems that red meat sources may specifically increase risks disproportionately, and also specifically for breast cancer

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/242S.full

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwa...-not-the-same/

It's certainly making me rethink what I do. Clearly low carb still makes sense. But excess protein may not be the answer.

That leaves only fat. And likely not the fats associated with red meats. But other fats (including saturated) fats still seem to be OK (although some studies don't agree with that).

So, in the end, it seems that the one macronutrient that we've demonized for more than half a century- fat- is really the most healthful thing to eat, and should comprise the vast majority of our diets.

Whoda thunk it.

Cheers.
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Old 06-21-2014, 12:50 PM   #2
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Default Interesting counter-argument

I realize that the source below is a body building website and, given the inherent bias, I usually don't put much credence in such sources. But the treatment (and objections raised) is quite good. More food for thought, so to speak.

http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/deat...ing-study.html

And more

http://www.drbriffa.com/2014/03/06/m...smoking-study/
http://www.zoeharcombe.com/2014/03/a...ad-as-smoking/

Cheers.

Last edited by brp; 06-21-2014 at 01:10 PM.
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Old 06-21-2014, 05:59 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brp View Post
Per Kim's request, a new thread is born. Time to throw in more controversy about this whole approach.

In doing this, we've moved away from carbs, with the bulk of calories coming from fat and protein. All working very well on all counts.

Some recent (and not so recent) research, however, points to possible negative implications for high protein (and I'm not even talking about "so that that the liver is in danger" levels) and further to the sources of the protein.

It seems that protein stimulates production of IGF-1, which has been linked to cancer. It certanly seems that higher levels of IGF-1 exacerbate an existing cancer, and reducing levels slows growth. There's also some evidence that elevated levels can increase the risk for cancer.

http://www.cell.com/cell-metabolism/...2814%2900062-X

(The diabetes link in he above is interesting...and questionable)

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/n...-food-science/

Also, it seems that red meat sources may specifically increase risks disproportionately, and also specifically for breast cancer

http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/82/1/242S.full

http://www.forbes.com/sites/alicegwa...-not-the-same/

It's certainly making me rethink what I do. Clearly low carb still makes sense. But excess protein may not be the answer.

That leaves only fat. And likely not the fats associated with red meats. But other fats (including saturated) fats still seem to be OK (although some studies don't agree with that).

So, in the end, it seems that the one macronutrient that we've demonized for more than half a century- fat- is really the most healthful thing to eat, and should comprise the vast majority of our diets.

Whoda thunk it.

Cheers.
Really interesting - I'l have to read this. I get much of my fat from coconut oil, butter and olive oil. I calculated suggested macros for LCHF a while back, and the suggestion was 70% fats, 25% protein and 5% carbs. I was getting, regularly, more like 10% carbs, 20% protein and 70% fats. Interesting reading here: http://keto-calculator.ankerl.com

Thanks for the links - will be reading for sure. Right now I am doing "if it fits your macros" and have increased carbs (not to a huge amount) to see if my lifting performance changes. So far, it's just ok. However, I feel much more full when I get more fat and fewer carbs (and my caloric intake is 200 calories higher right now!). Concerning me is that I am targeting 150g protein daily, while LCing I try to hit 100g. Will have to research this...
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Old 06-23-2014, 05:20 PM   #4
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I feel like I always have to qualify my statements.

I'm not an advocate for a low carb diet. But the conclusions drawn from this study seem, IMHO, to be irresponsible. It's difficult to take any study seriously that relies on what the subjects recall eating. Anybody who has worked as a personal trainer knows that people routinely lie or underestimate what they eat. Not to mention, you'd really have to log somebody's diet for a lengthy amount of time to get a good sense of their diet. For example, yesterday I ate a hamburger. It's the first time I ate one in months. You certainly wouldn't want to judge my diet by what I ate yesterday.

Lastly, I want to see genetic background and exercise regiments of the subjects. IMHO, a person who gets most of his calories from red meat is just not as likely to be exercising regularly. Granted that is from personal experience and not a scientific analysis (and note: I love red meat. I just don't find that regularly eating red meat to be very practical for most fitness enthusiasts due to the stuff that usually comes with red meat).
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Old 06-23-2014, 08:30 PM   #5
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I feel like I always have to qualify my statements.

I'm not an advocate for a low carb diet. But the conclusions drawn from this study seem, IMHO, to be irresponsible.
I'll go further to state that just about any epidemiological study is, by it's very nature, crap. But it does lead to hypotheses and the "next" experiment. That is its value, not the actual results themselves.

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IMHO, a person who gets most of his calories from red meat is just not as likely to be exercising regularly. Granted that is from personal experience and not a scientific analysis (and note: I love red meat. I just don't find that regularly eating red meat to be very practical for most fitness enthusiasts due to the stuff that usually comes with red meat).
Gotta disagree here, in general. Many fitness people focus quite a bit on lean red meat as a very good protein source along with necessary fats, and no carbs. It is one of the more practical things to eat for fitness folk.

Not sure about the "stuff that usually comes with red meat," but those are frightfully easy to avoid and not at all related to the value of red meat as a protein source for fitness people.

Now, if you're talking about the burger, bun and fries fat slobs that populate a large part of this country, I'll agree. But this goes far beyond red meat as nutrient source.

Cheers.
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Old 06-24-2014, 01:01 AM   #6
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Default Going mainstream

This is in the current (June 23) edition of Time Magazine. Want to be less fat? Eat fat.

http://time.com/2863227/ending-the-war-on-fat/

Cheers.
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Old 06-25-2014, 10:20 PM   #7
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Gotta disagree here, in general. Many fitness people focus quite a bit on lean red meat as a very good protein source along with necessary fats, and no carbs. It is one of the more practical things to eat for fitness folk.
I can really only speak from my experience as a trainer. Most fitness people I've worked with or know personally, tend to have much more diverse diets. That is they may eat red meat, but are also more likely to get protein from sources such as fish, chicken, and whey. In that case, having red meat as the dominant source is unlikely.

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Not sure about the "stuff that usually comes with red meat," but those are frightfully easy to avoid and not at all related to the value of red meat as a protein source for fitness people.
Maybe in the magical place where you live, red meat...especially lean red meat is easy to obtain. It's not everywhere. The other stuff that comes with most meals is not easy to avoid. It comes with virtually every meal you order at a restaurant and stacks the isles at the grocery stores. It's the exactly the opposite. It's hard to resist. That's why most people have difficulty with their diets.
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Old 06-25-2014, 10:37 PM   #8
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This is in the current (June 23) edition of Time Magazine. Want to be less fat? Eat fat.

http://time.com/2863227/ending-the-war-on-fat/

Cheers.
Another article that I think has its conclusions all wrong. People don't eat doughnuts for breakfast because it is a low fat alternative to eggs. They eat doughnuts because they taste good. The reason people don't eat more broccoli and less bread is because bread tastes good, is more available, and costs a heck of a lot less.

I also love at the end of the video talking about fat being good for you, they feature a plate with low fat chicken and vegetables or how they gave an example of a low fat alternative as a TV dinner.
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Old 06-26-2014, 12:45 AM   #9
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I can really only speak from my experience as a trainer. Most fitness people I've worked with or know personally, tend to have much more diverse diets. That is they may eat red meat, but are also more likely to get protein from sources such as fish, chicken, and whey. In that case, having red meat as the dominant source is unlikely.
I agree about the other sources being readily available as well. But red meat is still quite popular among fitness folk, as far as I know.


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Originally Posted by Sir Aaron View Post
Maybe in the magical place where you live, red meat...especially lean red meat is easy to obtain. It's not everywhere. The other stuff that comes with most meals is not easy to avoid. It comes with virtually every meal you order at a restaurant and stacks the isles at the grocery stores. It's the exactly the opposite. It's hard to resist. That's why most people have difficulty with their diets.
The "other stuff" is simply based on people making poor choices - eating buns, fries, etc. It is very easy to avoid. Just don't eat it. I live in the US, where lean meat is quite easy to find. Everywhere. Same for Europe and Asia, where I've been quite a bit. I'm also able to avoid the buns and fries in all of those places. Yes, it is everywhere. Those who seem not to find it clearly don't want to find it.

Cheers.
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Old 06-26-2014, 01:17 AM   #10
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I agree about the other sources being readily available as well. But red meat is still quite popular among fitness folk, as far as I know.
The context wasn't "popular" but the primary source of protein.


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The "other stuff" is simply based on people making poor choices - eating buns, fries, etc. It is very easy to avoid. Just don't eat it.
I agree...absolutely, it is a poor choice. Alas, if it only it were so easy for most folks. I have difficulty avoiding this stuff myself. It takes a lot of willpower and discipline. I'd much rather eat a bag of Cheetos than a chicken breast.

Quote:
I live in the US, where lean meat is quite easy to find. Everywhere. Same for Europe and Asia, where I've been quite a bit. I'm also able to avoid the buns and fries in all of those places. Yes, it is everywhere. Those who seem not to find it clearly don't want to find it.
Yep...just lean meat on every corner. Just as easy to find as hopping down to the local In-N-Out. Oh wait, they don't have any lean meat. Oh well, I'm sure Five Guys has something. Oh no! None there either. So much for everywhere.

We are also talking about lean red meat (or were). Ostrich and American Buffalo (or Bison if you prefer the actual name) is difficult to find for we little people of the lower classes. So that pretty much leaves lean cuts of steak or lean hamburger (both of which aren't very tasty, IMHO). The former is pretty easy to find at places that serve steak but the latter is not. It is much easier and less expensive to find and consume lean white meats such as Turkey, Chicken. And it's really, really easy just to skip the meat altogether and just take a protein shake (although I don't recommend it).
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