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Old 05-06-2018, 05:39 PM   #411
ealvarado8899
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Originally Posted by carolina_yankee View Post
I'm not convinced there's no sleight of hand. There is no understanding of customer needs, but of wants, and that can easily be manipulated by choices of words, images, etc. Disney surveys, upon which they claim that the majority of their guests find "value" in their high-cost vacations are marketing surveys. I really don't think they could pass muster as scientific research.
Forgive me, I don't mean to imply Disney is a saint. I would argue wants are needs and vice versa. Since a Disney vacation is not a "need" in any fashion, I interpret the usage of the verb in this case to be interchangeable admitting there is substance to the difference in definition.


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Originally Posted by carolina_yankee View Post
I don't mean to sound negative on Disney's marketing. I think it's brilliant, and relatively innocuous as people are ultimately responsible for how they spend their vacation dollars and if they buy the hype of a Disney vacation over the hype of the beauty of a Carolina beach, go for it. Disney marketing last summer convinced me to plan a trip to see Pandora: World of Avatar on 30 days notice and just 2 months after my last trip and 4 months before my next trip.
Hope it was fun even if it was not a value.

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Originally Posted by carolina_yankee View Post
I think it's a subtle bias, and I think it's also based on the deep affection people have for Disney. People are highly vocal about their dissatisfaction, but if they have an emotional connection, they will also give the benefit of a doubt.
An Example: The largest Disney chat forum on the internet will definitely drive you down and bring you into line if you attempt to be critical of the company. And it's not the moderators or the fact that the site is a front for a travel agency whose bread and butter is Disney, but it's the other posters.
Yes, agreed. I don't have any study data but agree that someone who is coming from a positive experience is more likely to be less critical. I further agree that there is something akin to a cult in support for Disney from some people. I would further agree that everything that people dislike about corporations apply to Disney. They are no saints, but neither are they devils (IMHO).

Never been on the other site, MO is the only one for me. I have been accused of not getting along well with others. I have no tolerance to ignorance, something which I find refreshing absent from MO.

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Originally Posted by carolina_yankee View Post
The TL;DR version: Disney is brilliant at marketing and I don't believe a single claim they make, but I love Disney and I do find subjective value in a Disney vacation.
My whole point was to note that Disney marketing has moved from "a family of 4 can have a Disney vacation for only $-----" to "Disney guests find great value in what we have to offer." It's no longer about affordable or economical, but value. That's because they can't argue the other two adjectives.

Dirk
If that is the general point, perhaps I missed it. I certainly agree that marketing is the subtle art of hyperbole. However, without an amazing product, the marketing can only work its magic so deeply.

Point conceded. Over the last ~50 years that Disney has very much shifted who their product is aimed at. I still find that WDW gets more amazing decade to decade. I have no expectation that was good 50 years ago is good today. The bar is constantly lifted and with increase in world population, inflation, and a growing interest in their creations it seems perfectly reasonable that the price is going to go up. Although, I doubt you have a problem with this philosophically, rather perhaps, it is the continuous stream of revenue grabs for many things that formerly were included in ticket price while they make claims of value of what they provide. Disney is a corporation not my good neighbor. They owe me nothing; I will continue to support them as long as there is value to my visits.

Yes, times are changing. I refuse to be that aging man who only sees how things are not like they used to be. Plenty of amazing things continue evolve at Disney even though regrettably much of origin is lost.

TL;DR
Yes, much of Disney has changed and they have become a standard corporation with all the trappings. They are a long way from their origin of a small company with a dream.

However, I argue this was inevitable and WDW is not necessarily worse as a result.

Eric
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Old 05-06-2018, 05:47 PM   #412
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Unquestionably true. The Tuscany trip is clearly the far superior of the two (yes, definitely subjective bias here) and yet Disney draws far more.

For us, we can't do 2 weeks anywhere at present, due to vacation time issues. But a 2-3 week stay in Tuscany has been on the post-retirement list for quite some time now. No marketing necessary...we've spent time there driving through the hill towns

Cheers.
It has nothing to do with marketing. I would choose, and continue to choose, Disney over Italy every single time year after year. I realize I am in the minority, a position I stand firm in over and over. Disney's product keeps me coming back not their marketing about their product.

BTW, MO does more to market Disney in my household than any Disney marketing.
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:04 PM   #413
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Although I believe that some of the posters on that largest forum are paid by Disney to control the narrative. I have called some of them out on it, and while they haven't admitted it, none of them denied it. So I don't post on there much anymore, as i don't agree with that type of control. We now live in a time where companies do that to control negative word of mouth. Nowadays you never know who you are talking to online and what motives they have, or even if they are a real person and not a bot.
Wow - hadn't thought of paid posters over there. That's a little disturbing! If they're not denying it, it seems like it could be a possibility - and goes to the manipulation of opinion theory.

Dirk
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:06 PM   #414
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I use DME and donít rent a car so would rather only people who park cars pay the parking fee instead of everyone
Hmm. Since DME is surely rolled into the room price, I'd like a rate reduction when I drive!!

At least as DVC members, this doesn't really apply to us.

Dirk
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Old 05-06-2018, 06:11 PM   #415
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Originally Posted by ealvarado8899 View Post
Forgive me, I don't mean to imply Disney is a saint. I would argue wants are needs and vice versa. Since a Disney vacation is not a "need" in any fashion, I interpret the usage of the verb in this case to be interchangeable admitting there is substance to the difference in definition.



Hope it was fun even if it was not a value.


Yes, agreed. I don't have any study data but agree that someone who is coming from a positive experience is more likely to be less critical. I further agree that there is something akin to a cult in support for Disney from some people. I would further agree that everything that people dislike about corporations apply to Disney. They are no saints, but neither are they devils (IMHO).

Never been on the other site, MO is the only one for me. I have been accused of not getting along well with others. I have no tolerance to ignorance, something which I find refreshing absent from MO.


If that is the general point, perhaps I missed it. I certainly agree that marketing is the subtle art of hyperbole. However, without an amazing product, the marketing can only work its magic so deeply.

Point conceded. Over the last ~50 years that Disney has very much shifted who their product is aimed at. I still find that WDW gets more amazing decade to decade. I have no expectation that was good 50 years ago is good today. The bar is constantly lifted and with increase in world population, inflation, and a growing interest in their creations it seems perfectly reasonable that the price is going to go up. Although, I doubt you have a problem with this philosophically, rather perhaps, it is the continuous stream of revenue grabs for many things that formerly were included in ticket price while they make claims of value of what they provide. Disney is a corporation not my good neighbor. They owe me nothing; I will continue to support them as long as there is value to my visits.

Yes, times are changing. I refuse to be that aging man who only sees how things are not like they used to be. Plenty of amazing things continue evolve at Disney even though regrettably much of origin is lost.

TL;DR
Yes, much of Disney has changed and they have become a standard corporation with all the trappings. They are a long way from their origin of a small company with a dream.

However, I argue this was inevitable and WDW is not necessarily worse as a result.

Eric
TL;DR - I'm definitely a huge Disney fan and love what they can do. I can get jaded when picking apart this or that but Disney is something I love very much and I'm often the most passionate about it in whatever group I'm with.

One big thing I like about Disney is that they continue to be innovative and evolve. And I recognize that part of that evolution is trying, testing, and adjusting. Not everything will be a homeroom. If my only really quibble with the company is the mandatory room checks (since DVC covers my parking), I suspect Disney and I are on great terms.

It is indeed different than it was when we started regularly in 2003, but the economy is different, too. I suspect a major downturn would see deals to respond to that, and while some wonderful park things have changed, some new ones are coming online. It's just a transition period right now.

As an example of my Disney devotion, I keep threatening that DCL has priced m out of the market and the next cruise is likely my last DCL cruise. And I've got two more on the books after having said that. I do find value in the Disney difference!

While Celebrity will likely be my ship of choice for a Transatlantic (mostly due to cost, but itinerary also), rest assured that if I can swing DCL, I'll do it in a heartbeat because of the added value, even if there is a price premium (most assuredly there will be). The only question is how much before the value disappears.

Dirk
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