Sad News Strikes Again

[PoohsPal]

Boy dies after riding RnR :groom:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/tourism/orl-bk-disney06292006,0,5996099.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

My heart goes out to that poor family.

[carolina_yankee]

That really is sad - it sounds like another case of unknown or ignored health condition in the individual involved if the ride was functioning properly. I can think of nothing worse than going to the Happiest Place on Earth and having something like this happen to your family.

As far as Disney and deaths go, I wonder why we never hear about such event from Universal? Don't they have as many intense attractions? Either it's the law of averages and their smaller crowds result in fewer incidents, or they're not reported as widely as Disney events are.

Dirk

[PoohsPal]

My guess is tha thtey are not under teh scope like WDW. However, there was a drwoning in one of their poosl not too long ago. WIth the lights, I wonder about epilepsy. Could be anything, though. It's awful to lose a child but it does seem much worse to have it happen on teh happiest place on earth.

[Rozzie]

my thoughts exactly Dirk. I do wonder of Universal's track record.

Poor boy, and his family. I just really can't imagine something so horrific, and when you least expect it. :(

[Stimpy]

How sad for the family! I can't imagine losing your child.


That was a little spooky though...I was listening to Sweet Emotion by Aerosmith when I opened this up. I usually turn the station when that comes on.

[Chip126]

How sad:( I just heard this on the news. My heart goes out to this child and his family.

[Colorado Belle]

No matter HOW you lose a child...it is the worst thing that could possibly happen to anyone (IMHO).

Yet I agree, to lose your child at Disney World...it just seems so very wrong.

I read the article and was dismayed that a negative remark seemed to be made that 'a call was placed to 911 at 11:21 but a defilibrator didn't arrive until 11:26.
That seems VERY FAST to me.

My heart hurts for the family. I think it important to learn the cause...epilepsy, choking, aneurism...so that other parent's can make informed decisions as to what rides to let their kid's on. I am starting to wonder if high G forces are not, in general, good for our health? I realize that we are all kindof walking aneurisms waiting to happen, but at some point, do we give our bodies a break and stop riding coasters? RnR is my favorite coaster ride...for me it is worth the risk; but then I've decided that I don't need to do MS anymore (but I am not fond of spinning).

[Nikki]

Very sad! It sad the family had just checked out of the hotel, so I assume it was there last day. At any point it would be terrible, but at the end of the vacation just seems even more heart breaking. My heart goes out to the family.

I was also wondering why we don't hear these reports about other theme parks.

[Nikki]

I read the article and was dismayed that a negative remark seemed to be made that 'a call was placed to 911 at 11:21 but a defilibrator didn't arrive until 11:26.
That seems VERY FAST to me.

.


I also thought it seemed fast, especially for getting into a park through the crowds. But I guess they are implying that there should be defilbrators at the exits of these trill rides. They might have a point.

[Spine_DR]

Many of these health conditions art being ignored there is a small percentage of peopel in this world that are basically ticking time bombs no signs that there is something wrong, conditions like aortic anyerisms(sp) 100s of different heart defects and some things like i see in my practice on rare occasions, ie Os Odontoidium. Evan though the chances of sudden death from a congenital condition are rare its more probable at places like WDW because of the huge number of people that visit it.

[lenshanem]

I agree, think how many people go thru the Disney parks each year. There is unfortunately going to be deaths.

I am surprised we don't hear about this more often at Universal though, given the extreme rides they have at IOA.

I thought there was a law where the Florida theme parks had to report injuries and deaths, so I don't think it is just that Universal keeps it more quiet. Odd.

Personally, I think the rides have just gone over the top - pushing our bodies to such extremes. If someone has an underlying health problem situations like this can happen.

I'm guessing the boy had an underlying health problem that was unknown. He could have passed away running on the playground, etc. Nobody knows.

I do know that that ride's initial take off gets my adrenaline running and in a big, big way. It is on the verge of being too much for me.


I know there are alot of people that like these thrill rides and I know Disney has to compete in some way with the other local parks, but I really wish they would quit doing these type of rides and go back to spending money on rides entire families can do together - like POTC and HM. There is a reason those rides are still classics and favorites. Isn't that what Walt wanted? A place where the ENTIRE family can enjoy things together??? And at what point do these thrill rides stop?

Prayers to that family. I just can't even imagine. My heart just totally aches thinking about it. The loss of a child is hard to grasp, the pain must be beyond belief.

I have to add that five minutes at WDW seems like an awful long time. I'm surprised given the amount of people that come thru the parks that they don't have emergency equipment at all the thrill rides. It just seems like they'd be more prepared at a place like this. I dunno???

[matysgranma]

Gosh, I just hate to hear stories like this! Oh, I just feel so sorry for the family. I wonder if the little boy had already ridden RRC on their vacation. This being their last day has me thinking they chose to go to MGM cuz that was their favorite park with favorite rides. I'm sure we'll get more info as the story plays out. Keep that family in your prayers everyone.

[Blue&Gold]

Our prayers go out to this family...

5 minutes is more than a respectful response time, short of having an EMT at the door. Imagine these parks as a small city of the same "population..." 5 minutes is lightning fast.


I am starting to wonder if high G forces are not, in general, good for our health?

Don't wonder, take it as fact... High G forces are not good for your health. The issue is that the definition of "high G" is variable. 9 or more Gs can kill the healthiest pilots we have in high performance aircraft... Sustained pulls of 3-4 Gs will really get your heart rate up and can cause serious side effects. Sustained exposure to 5 or more Gs will knock out most people. But RnR doesn't "sustain" the high G condition beyond a few seconds.

The unfortunate calculus is that if 1 in a million "healthy" people have a hidden condition, and 1 million people ride a ride that potentially triggers that condition, there will ultimately be a death.

Again, my prayers go out for this family. I think I'll go kiss my kids one more time tonight...

[dvcconvert]

My thoughts and prayers go out to the family. :(

[soozaay]

How very sad. My heart too goes out to the family. I'd like to find out more about the accident.

[jiggerj]

How hearbreaking- :( My thoughts and prayers for the child and what his family and friends must be going thru-

[tjkraz]

I read the article and was dismayed that a negative remark seemed to be made that 'a call was placed to 911 at 11:21 but a defilibrator didn't arrive until 11:26.
That seems VERY FAST to me.


I don't think the response time is the focus, rather the lack of any AED in close proximity to the ride. Assuming that his heart had stopped several minutes before the call was even placed, he may have been without a pulse for 10 minutes or more. That seems like an eternity to this layman.

Disney has AEDs all over the resort hotels. I remember seeing them at all of the OKW bus stops, for example. I'm surprised they wouldn't just put one at each thrill ride. They only cost something like $500 and anyone can operate them.

Although Disney may publicly deny it, I think their days of "bigger, harder, faster" rides will quietly go on hiatus. Besides all of the negative publicity, Mission Space will never become the franchise attraction Disney had envisioned after investing tens-of-millions of dollars in its development. Disney had hoped they would be able to put M:S clones all over the world, and we all know that will never happen now.

Now that each of the Florida parks has one or more major thril rides, I think Disney will focus their energies elsewhere.

[tjkraz]

Sustained exposure to 5 or more Gs will knock out most people. But RnR doesn't "sustain" the high G condition beyond a few seconds.


That's always been my concern about Mission: Space. Although there are many rides that produce higher G forces, M:S seems to be unique in the duration over which the forces are sustained.

I got into some pretty heated debates (not here) after the last death on that ride. Most people seem to want to immediately conclude that the health of the riders was entirely to blame, and assume that there couldn't possibly be anything wrong with the ride itself.

Granted in both of the deaths that did occur on M:S, there were preexisting medical conditions. But that still leaves me wondering if we know everything we should know about what that ride is going to the riders' bodies.

When all else fails, I try to remember this one simple fact: There was a time when we all thought Vioxx (breast implants, asbestos, cigarettes, etc.) was safe.

[carolina_yankee]

I don't think the response time is the focus, rather the lack of any AED in close proximity to the ride. Assuming that his heart had stopped several minutes before the call was even placed, he may have been without a pulse for 10 minutes or more. That seems like an eternity to this layman.

Disney has AEDs all over the resort hotels. I remember seeing them at all of the OKW bus stops, for example. I'm surprised they wouldn't just put one at each thrill ride. They only cost something like $500 and anyone can operate them.
I wonder about that, too. I don't think M:S has AED's either. It would seem (especially after the recent deaths), that each thrill ride would have AED's with CMs trained in their use (so they're familiar with the process and not nervous about using them).

I'm not as bothered by the response time. If I need to call EMS to my home, no one is going to be here in less than 5 minutes. I suspect the actual time from loss of consciousness to EMT might have been about 7 minutes if the child lost consciousness on the ride. From the reports, it sounds like they called very quickly.

Although Disney may publicly deny it, I think their days of "bigger, harder, faster" rides will quietly go on hiatus. Besides all of the negative publicity, Mission Space will never become the franchise attraction Disney had envisioned after investing tens-of-millions of dollars in its development. Disney had hoped they would be able to put M:S clones all over the world, and we all know that will never happen now.

Now that each of the Florida parks has one or more major thril rides, I think Disney will focus their energies elsewhere.
As much as I like M:S, RnR, etc., it really is the classics that draw me back again and again and again. Everest also seems to be a gentler kind of thrill ride that can satisfy a large range of guests. Even Soarin' gets raves from the teens and young adults I know (of course, they have Great Adventure nearby to satisfy their thrill quotient).

If I recall David Koenig's book "Mousetales" correctly, I think the TTA still stands as the deadliest attraction at Disney because of thoughtless antics. Even Carousel of Progress had an accidental death of the operator when her clothing was caught in the transition mechanism from one scene to the next.

Dirk

[DisneyNutMary]

My heart goes out to the family.
The boy and his brother are the same ages as my boys, and not matter what the cause of death turns out to be, I can't imagine the intense grief the mother is going through right now.

[Blue&Gold]

I'm drawing a blank on TTA... What ride?

Until there is an autopsy, there is no way of knowing the cause of death (and maybe not conclusively even after an autopsy). If the young man suffered an aneurism or a massive stroke the AED wouldn't have helped.

[carolina_yankee]

I'm drawing a blank on TTA... What ride?

Until there is an autopsy, there is no way of knowing the cause of death (and maybe not conclusively even after an autopsy). If the young man suffered an aneurism or a massive stroke the AED wouldn't have helped.
TTA is the Tomorrowland Transit Authority - formerly Wedway People mover. I believe when it was in Disneyland, there were several deaths (mostly drunken grad night antics) on the attraction. I'm not sure about WDW.

Good point about the limitations of the AED. We keep forgetting that human beings aren't computers that you can just reboot at will. Soemtimes things happen, and there's nothing anyone can do.

It's interesting how evertyime there's a death like this, we're always equally sympathetic towards the family and protective towards Disney. It goes to how attached we all feel to the place.

Dirk

[doombuggy]

I'm drawing a blank on TTA... What ride?
Maybe if he said WEDWAY peoplemover? ;)

It was my understanding from what I heard on the news last night that the boy's father administered CPR until the EMTs or whatever got there. As far as a CM administering CPR or using those defibs, you have to be trained to use them before using them. I worked a shift at Mickey's Pantry a couple of times (got pulled from my normal location) and was told that I was not allowed to sell any wine - I had to get someone else (meaning a MP person) to do this if someone wanted to make a purchase. Wel,, heck I am way over 21, but not trained in this area of sales. We live by the rules around here......

We went to Universal last weekend, and I think that yes, less people go to those parks (not to knock the parks) and to be honest, I think those rides at IOA are way more intense, but they break down and are closed sometimes due to the weather. We waited for about 1 hour to ride the Seuss Trolley, which was shut down due to lightning in the area. When we were down with that one, we went over to ride Spiderman, but it was broken down. We left after that, and the skies opened up just as we got to the end of City Walk.

Prayers to the family of this young fellow. How sad. :(

[tjkraz]

I'm drawing a blank on TTA... What ride?


Tomorrowland Transit Authority...or, in Disneyland-speak, Peoplemover / Rocket Rod's.

I think Dirk is probably correct, although in my mind there is a slight distinction between those deaths and what's recently happened at WDW. Most, if not all of the deaths on the Peoplemover were basically the result of a guest doing something they shouldn't. For example, at least one of the deaths involved a guest who tried to leap from one moving car to the next, missed, and was crushed on the tracks. I believe there was another who ended up standing while the ride was moving and was basically beheaded.

In the case of the recent M:S deaths, the incident at ToT last summer and quite possibly this one as well is that the rides apparently exacerbated a pre-existing medical condition. Disney may well claim that there is no distinction--that in both cases guests ignored safety warnings. And for the most part that's a fair claim.

The other category of "incident" would be mechanical error. These are the situations in which it is clearly Disney's fault. Examples here would be the BTMR crash a couple years ago that killed a guest at DL or the brake failure on California Screamin' last Fall.

Until there is an autopsy, there is no way of knowing the cause of death (and maybe not conclusively even after an autopsy). If the young man suffered an aneurism or a massive stroke the AED wouldn't have helped.

Quite true, but I wonder what the rationale is for not having them available at each thrill ride. Even if it wouldn't have helped this one boy, is it irrational to say that they would have been put to good use someday? With such a low purchase cost, is $5 - 10,000 not justification for the hope of saving one life?

I've seen them in use and it couldn't be simpler. When you open the case, there are 3 pads and a diagram of a human torso that shows exactly where they are to be placed. Press a single button and it takes care of the rest.

[Rozzie]

To what CB was saying about the timing of the AED (sorry quote didn't work for some reason....)

Just have to add, that is a very fast time for a AED. Especially for one that was not near/on site of RnR.

If a patient crashes in the hospital, it may take 5 minutes for a patient to be defib'd on a busy floor. And that is with a crash cart just down the hall. Getting the crash cart, getting it in the room, (they are quite large, not small compact one's seen out in the community) You have to position the patient, stop CPR, appy the patches, "clear" the patient, and allow the heart to be read. And that is if you witness the patient crash.

As Blue&Gold reported, a AED is not a instant lifesaver. It only covers a small amount of conditions that may stop the heart.

I would think AED's would be a good addition to all these thrill rides. I don't mean to be funny, really, but I am always amused that the "smoking cages" at the airport have AED's right outside. You place AED's in areas deemed high risk.

[Spine_DR]

AED are known as smart defib machines when you apply the pads a computer analyzes the heart beat if there is a shockable rythm then it will charge and shock but unlike crash carts they are very limited a Truama center Doctor can do more with a manual defib but you cant have trauma docs with equip at every ride.

[Rozzie]

AED are known as smart defib machines when you apply the pads a computer analyzes the heart beat if there is a shockable rythm then it will charge and shock but unlike crash carts they are very limited a Truama center Doctor can do more with a manual defib but you cant have trauma docs with equip at every ride.

Agreed, I still think there should be more AEDs in the community. Especially for grandpa waiting outside near the entrance.

Your right, there is only 1 thing a AED can do, a crash cart and a trauma doc would have another trick up their sleeve! ;)

[ErinC]

This is so terribly sad! I can't even imagine the pain of the loss of a child.

Has anyone seen any more info today about this incident. I just wondered where the family was from?

As much as I probably think this is probably some preexisting cond., you just never know. I know that last time we went to Epcot, we skipped the whole MS pavilion. I just didn't want to ride it, or put my kids on it. I really had no reaction to riding it the first time, and my kids seemed to like it, but I still just avoided it in March.

Even though it's not clear in any of the cases that the AED could have helped, I don't understand why they are not available. If they can have them at the bus stops, why not at the end of the ride? It seems like a small price to pay for something that could possibly save a life.

[withdisneyspirit]

The family was from Kentucky and they were on the last day of their vacation :(

[Blue&Gold]

Even though it's not clear in any of the cases that the AED could have helped, I don't understand why they are not available. If they can have them at the bus stops, why not at the end of the ride? It seems like a small price to pay for something that could possibly save a life.

I don't think it's been established that there wasn't an AED available... Believe the only "fact" we have is that it took 5 minutes from the 911 call to when EMS arrived.

As to the "it's a small price" issue, I'm sure that will be litigated... Could be that the safety plan for the resort is for AEDs at remote locations (bus stops) and for real, live EMTs in the parks. Just saying that can be a slippery slope for us to comment on without all the information---of course we (I) do that all the time here.

[Rozzie]

I don't think it's been established that there wasn't an AED available... Believe the only "fact" we have is that it took 5 minutes from the 911 call to when EMS arrived.



Why is 5 minutes considered a bad response time? I guess that is what I keep getting lost on. I think the press and attorney's are holding Disney to a incredible standard that might just be unrealistic.

Now, more I think about it, maybe they should staff RNs at all the rides....


My heart is with the boy's family. That poor kid. I am guessing he had a underlying condition. I can't imagine the guilt and profound grief his parents feel.

It just amazes me though that the MS kid's family is suing Disney still even after they diagnosed him with a underlying condition. I saw the link on the other board on that a while back.

[idratherbeinwdw]

Why is 5 minutes considered a bad response time? I guess that is what I keep getting lost on. I think the press and attorney's are holding Disney to a incredible standard that might just be unrealistic.

Now, more I think about it, maybe they should staff RNs at all the rides....


My heart is with the boy's family. That poor kid. I am guessing he had a underlying condition. I can't imagine the guilt and profound grief his parents feel.

It just amazes me though that the MS kid's family is suing Disney still even after they diagnosed him with a underlying condition. I saw the link on the other board on that a while back.

I have to agree with everything you said Rozzie. And I don't see myself as having rose colored glasses when it comes to WDW, if they mess up I'll say they did. But with the MS kid it's ridiculous, how can you blame Disney when the child had an undiagnosed problem? They certainly put enough warning signs at the entrance to attractions. And with the RnR situation, a 5 minute response time sounds very sufficient.

About the only thing I do think should be looked into is the lack of defibrilators. Whether or not this child could be saved I think they should have them accessible for all the attractions, just in case.

[carolina_yankee]

The medical examiner released preliminary findings showing the boy had congenital heart deffects.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/business/custom/tourism/orl-bk-disneyautopsy063006,0,6849464.story?coll=orl-home-headlines

Dirk

[Blue&Gold]

Why is 5 minutes considered a bad response time? I guess that is what I keep getting lost on.


Probably lost in translation here, but I don't think 5 mins is a bad response time. I think I point out in earlier posts that my opinion is that it is a very good response time.

I think we're mostly in agreement here that ultimately, running a theme/amusement park---or going to a theme/amusement park involves risk, not necessarily danger (though many of the best thrill rides make you think you are in danger when you really aren't). It is Disney's responsibility to minimize risk, while it is the rider's decision to accept some amount of risk. Is it a good idea to have AEDs at all the rides? Possibly. Should there be a fully staffed trauma center next to the car care center? Might be overdoing it... The only way to completely eliminate risk is to eliminate the activity.

Just saw this on CNN.com... From the preliminary Autopsy:

"No evidence of injury was found, but congenital heart abnormalities were detected which will be further evaluated," the report from the District Nine Medical Examiner's office said. "The cause of death will be left pending until results of additional studies are obtained."

Full story at http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/06/30/coaster.death/index.html

[Rozzie]

Probably lost in translation here, but I don't think 5 mins is a bad response time. I think I point out in earlier posts that my opinion is that it is a very good response time.


oops. Sorry for the confusion on my part. Go Navy! :flowerfor

Congential heart defect. Very sad, makes me wonder what the actual percent of the population has this or something similar and are just not aware of it. Think I am going to ask one of the heart doc's at work tomorrow if they have ever come across a study with a guess on what %.

[idratherbeinwdw]

I feel for the family, but the results of the autopsy were exactly what I expected. Well maybe not the exact cause, but that the boy had some undetected ailment was no surprise. A healthy individual does not die from going on a roller coaster ride.

[Colorado Belle]

Hi guys....I'm the one who posted the 5 minute time delay between the call and the response. Perhaps I wasn't clear, but I was trying to say that that seemed like an extremely reasonable time...and certainly much quicker than if you had a problem at home. Which certainly seems to be the consensus opinion here, especially of those in the medical profession.

I had an experience with 'undiagnosed heart problems' in children. My kid was a dancer and one of the dancers in her company had spent years pushing her heart to the limits. (They all did.) But it wasn't until she was in high school and tried to participate in a sport requiring an extensive physical exam, that they found a hole in her heart that required immediate surgery. So for all those years, she was a walking time bomb...and no one knew. No matter how many warnings were posted re 'pre-existing conditions', she always felt and reacted as an extremely healthy young woman.

We are a litiginous society. Most of us try to blame everything and everyone but ourselves. Especially when we are in deep grief, trying to find answers, we are easily led by others to find an explanation, blame someone. I think most of these 'preexisting condition' type deaths are extremely tragic BUT no one's fault.
Especially when it is a child, especially when it is your child, that is just so hard to accept.

I think Blue & Gold posted 'if one in a million people has an undiagnosed heart condition' and a quoted newspaper article said that the RnR had over 36 million riders.....then one could expect that 36 people might be at very high risk for riding that coaster. But they wouldn't know it. Short of requiring us all to wear a built in heart monitor on all coasters and then recording the data...it is pretty much guess work. And completely tragic.

[Rozzie]

Sorry CB, I didn't mean to sound like I was misquoting you on the response time.
:flowerfor I tried to quote you saying it was a fast response time, and misread B&G's post. Clear as mud, huh? What else do ya'll expect from a girl trying to stop her caffeine addiction. :crackedup

I actually have been reading a lot on the DIS, and there has been some negativity on the response time----I guess I was thinking of that when I said what I said about "being lost".


CB, what a scary story about your daughter. I am so happy and relieved to hear her problem was discovered and corrected.. But how scary that must have been for all of you. :hug:

[Niki]

This is so sad. Such a wonderful place will now be ruined for that family forever. RnR is my favorite ride in the world. I have ridden dozens of times without problem, as have my DH and friend's kids. Many parks have tougher rides and no one dies. While my heart goes out to this family, I have to believe that this death was as a result of some undetected health issue, not the thrill ride.

[Blue&Gold]

I had an experience with 'undiagnosed heart problems' in children. My kid was a dancer and one of the dancers in her company had spent years pushing her heart to the limits. (They all did.) But it wasn't until she was in high school and tried to participate in a sport requiring an extensive physical exam, that they found a hole in her heart that required immediate surgery. So for all those years, she was a walking time bomb...and no one knew. No matter how many warnings were posted re 'pre-existing conditions', she always felt and reacted as an extremely healthy young woman.

I have a close friend who discovered during our Junior year at Annapolis that he had a "shunt" between 2 ventricles in his heart, so that it was pumping a certain amount of blood in a closed loop. He was in fantastic physical condition... The chest cutters opened him up and sewed him up and he's 16 years into a career flying aircraft off carriers. But, he never would have known without having the opportunity to go through the detailed pre-commissioning physicals we undergo.

Most likely, there was no reasonable way of knowing that young man had a problem at his age. I have two young boys and a little girl on the way, and I can't imagine what the parents are going through.

[carolina_yankee]

I actually have been reading a lot on the DIS, and there has been some negativity on the response time--
Ah, well. T'here you have it. That's why we're all here!! We're reasonable, compassionate, and have adult conversations. :innocent:

Some people will use this as an opportunity to jump on Disney. Others will use to jump on those who jump on Disney. The WDWMagic boards are almost the opposite of DIS in this regard.

Dirk

[PoohsPal]

Sorry to have posted and then ge tsucked away...

A few tid bits I picked up:

1. 1.5 billion people rode costers in last year (worldwide?). 152 deaths were caused by coasters. This was on one of the morning news shows. Looks like Disney really does get pinpointed

2. I've heard that the Red Cross is trying to get an AED w/in 4 min of everyone in the US. That's how long you have before brain damage can start to occur. So, it surprises me that hospitals can take 5 min. Let's face it, there's only so much humanly possible. Heck, I have an ambulance stationed less than a mile away. Could tehy get the call, jump in, and get to me in 4 minutes. Doubt it.

3. IIRC, AEDs are pretty costly. At least $25K? (Maybe more like 40 to 60). Not that life is not worth that much, but it may not be feasible to have them at teh end of all the potentially dangerous rides to those with unknown health conditions.

Still, can't believe how awful this is for the family and those that witnessed it or came to the call.

[PoohsPal]

Ah, well. T'here you have it. That's why we're all here!! We're reasonable, compassionate, and have adult conversations. :innocent: Dirk

Does make a difference, doesn't it. ;)

[soozaay]

Originally Posted by carolina_yankee
Ah, well. T'here you have it. That's why we're all here!! We're reasonable, compassionate, and have adult conversations. Dirk

Does make a difference, doesn't it. ;)

YES it does! That's why I love it here! :yes: