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View Full Version : Possible Tax Implications for Time-Share Owners that Rent out Points


TW1
05-30-2006, 04:24 PM
Here's a recent article fromthe Orlando Sentinel. It considers the impact that time-shares are having on state coffers in terms of lost resort taxes. Reading between the lines it seems like Florida will begin to look for ways to track down time share owners who rent their places, for these owners may someday be subject to paying the resort taxes.

Also, our friend Tom Yeary is quoted in this article.

- - - -
Time shares put squeeze on hotels
Shift in occupancy rates may cut resort-tax pool

Tim Barker | Sentinel Staff Writer
Posted May 30, 2006


For months, Orlando hoteliers have worried about a pair of seemingly conflicting facts. On one hand, they keep hearing estimates of record numbers of tourists coming to the state. On the other, their occupancy rates are falling.

Where, they ask, are all these people sleeping?

Cars? Campgrounds? The homes of friends or relatives?

The answer appears to be: time shares.

In 2001, 10 percent of Orlando visitors stayed in time shares. Last year, that number had increased to 15 percent.

That steady shift in sleeping preferences could have significant ramifications, not only for hotel-occupancy rates, but for the county's resort tax. The pool is used to pay for things such as the convention center and is being eyed for the new downtown performing-arts center and an arena for the Orlando Magic.

Because time shares count as real estate, they generally are exempt from the tax, a 5 percent charge on short-term rentals. The exemption, however, does not apply to those units rented out like hotel rooms.

Overall collections have remained strong in recent months, but hoteliers have warned that it's only because they've been raising room prices to offset declining occupancies -- and that there are limits to that tactic.

"That has played itself out," said Ron Caimano, a longtime hotelier and general manager of the Embassy Suites hotel at Jamaican Court.

Last year, the average price for a hotel room in Central Florida surged nearly 6 percent over the previous year. And it's up 9 percent through the first three months of the year, according to Smith Travel Research, a Tennessee-based company that tracks national hotel trends.

Still, Orange County's resort-tax shepherd isn't ready to sound the alarm. Though collections took a 2.1 percent dip in March, they are still up 3.1 percent for the first six months of the fiscal year.

"I'm not going to say it's threatening the resort tax. But everything that is a change in the market, we are going to pay attention to," Comptroller Martha Haynie said. "It is such a critical revenue source."

Watching that shifting marketplace, Haynie said she'll take a look at how her auditors are deployed, perhaps to keep a closer eye on time-share operations that are taxable.

'A lot of time share'

As far as hoteliers are concerned, every person who buys a time share is one fewer potential customer for the area's 110,000 hotel rooms. Further, those tourists are guaranteeing that their many future trips will be hotel-free.

"There's a lot of time share out there. And there's a bucket load more of it coming," said Caimano, who also is on the board of directors for the Central Florida Hotel & Lodging Association.

Among those leaving the ranks of hotel guests last year was Valerie Hines, 36, of Kenosha, Wis.

After years of staying in hotels in the Disney and Universal areas, Hines and her husband decided early last year to take the plunge and buy into the Disney Vacation Club.

"The fact that we went so much -- it just made sense," said Hines, who already has trekked back to Orlando half a dozen times since buying the Disney time share. "In the long term, we knew we'd be saving quite a bit."

The time-share trend might be good for visitors, but hoteliers and the county's resort-tax collectors are worried.

Hotel-occupancy rates have been on the decline since August of last year and are down 7.6 percent through the first three months of this year, according to Smith Travel.

Just as time shares are capturing a larger piece of the tourist pool, hotels are watching theirs shrink. Last year, 62 percent of visitors stayed in hotels, compared with 67 percent the previous year, according to D.K. Shifflet & Associates, a travel-industry consulting company in Falls Church, Va.

"The condos, the time shares -- everything is an alternative to hotels," said Scott Brush, a Miami-based hotel consultant. "It's got to have some effect on the hotel business."

Long time in the making

It is a shift that has been taking shape for some time. Ironically, it has been assisted by the hotels themselves -- most of them rent lobby space to time-share marketers, who troll for customers. Some hotel chains also see the benefit of the transition because they own some of Orlando's time-share resorts.

From 2001 to 2005, the number of time-share units jumped to 19,099 from 15,157, a 26 percent increase, according to the Orlando/Orange County Convention & Visitors Bureau. Hotel-room growth, on the other hand, has been fairly stagnant during the same five-year period, growing only 2 percent.

"We're starting to see the outcome of all that development that's taken place," said Kelly Repass, the bureau's research director.

Though time shares -- typically sold in one-week increments -- are generally exempt from the resort tax, there are exceptions.

Some resorts, particularly those owned by larger hospitality companies with enormous booking engines, treat unsold units as hotel rooms, making them taxable. The same goes for individual owners who rent their time shares to friends, family or strangers.

It is not known what percentage of resort-tax collections come from such rentals. But there is little reason to think the county is getting everything it has coming to it.

"It's difficult to track this. We have to rely on folks to be honest," said Claudia Rilea, an audit supervisor in the Orange County Comptroller's Office. "There can be so many private transactions that go on."

And there are likely to be many more in the years to come. Time sharing has come a long way from its shadier, early days, in part because of the legitimacy granted by hospitality heavyweights -- Disney, Marriott and Hilton, for example -- that have gotten into the business.

"The acceptance by the consumer marketplace is so much greater than it was even five years ago," said Ed Kinney, a vice president with Marriott Vacation Club International, which has 1,900 units in the area and 200 others under construction.

Secondhand time shares

It isn't just the resorts themselves that are experiencing a surge in sales activity. More often, consumers are seeking out time shares on the secondhand market -- free of the high-pressure tactics used by many resorts.

Tom Yeary has been running the Timeshare Store, an Orlando real-estate company specializing in resales, for more than a decade. In the early days, it was just Yeary and his wife. But they've added five employees through the years to keep up with the demand.

"We sell more every year," Yeary said. "I went from five days a week to seven days a week keeping the office open."

And although hoteliers and tax collectors may lament the rise of the time-share beast, it isn't a bad development for the tourism industry as a whole. After all, the purchase of a time share essentially guarantees a tourist will be back time and again.

Consider Cindy Bartz, 49, of Wichita, Kan.

Before buying a time share five years ago, she and her husband traveled to Orlando about once every two years, staying at a variety of midrange hotels.

Now, they come at least twice a year. And all that money they used to spend on hotel rooms isn't staying in Kansas.

"We end up spending more on food, souvenirs, collectibles and that sort of thing," said Bartz, a respiratory therapist. "If anything, we spend more."

Tim Barker can be reached at 407-420-5022 or tbarker@orlandosentinel.com.

DSNY FN
05-30-2006, 05:07 PM
Well thanksfull I live in Canada and they can't touch me for that one LOL.

ghost1000
05-30-2006, 05:18 PM
That could explain the 1% hotel tax increase that's being talked about.

Another reason to own DVC (http://www.mouseowners.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3341)

DisFlan
05-30-2006, 05:56 PM
Thanks, TW1! Interesting article. The room/resort tax already eats up a big chunk of room cost, and it'll probably get higher in the future. Yup, another good reason to own DVC.


DisFlan

Rozzie
05-30-2006, 07:00 PM
See, we ain't as dumb as all the nay-sayers think we are!!!! :idea:

carolina_yankee
05-30-2006, 07:39 PM
And although hoteliers and tax collectors may lament the rise of the time-share beast, it isn't a bad development for the tourism industry as a whole. After all, the purchase of a time share essentially guarantees a tourist will be back time and again.

I can understand that Time Shares are eating into the hotel tax receipts somewhat, but there have to be other factors as well. Disney as a whole seems to have a higher occupancy right now, so I suspect the County gets the same $$ or even more from the Mouse than they did a couple of years ago. Plus, I'm sure Mickey pays the hotel tax on those villas rented out as hotel rooms, and we pay real estate taxes on the property as well.

Times change, and people's spending patterns change. Orange County is simply going to have to adjust their tax and funding patterns to keep up, but I doubt they'll go after individuals who rent out their points. The administrative overhead would be enormous for what is generally carried out in the cyberspace equivalent of a backroom with virtually no paper trail. How can anyone verify the person checking in on your points isn't your best friend whom you've given the points to as a birthday gift, or something? Hmmm, I wonder if the tax bureau lurks on Mouseowners? :goodnevil

We're traveling to Florida 3 times more this year than we would have otherwise because of DVC. So, they're making more $$ off of me from the airport fees and sales tax (especially on dining), than they ever would have off of my usual 9 night annual trip.

Dirk

jaysue
05-30-2006, 07:41 PM
Well thanksfull I live in Canada and they can't touch me for that one LOL.

As a fellow Canadian, we have to be careful of having foreign property worth over (I think it is $100K) and also when we go to sell our US timeshares we need to get a US Taxpayer ID Number and apply for a waiver to the 10% withholding tax

Cheers
jaysue

DisFlan
05-30-2006, 08:23 PM
Dirk - I wondered the same thing about going after all those private rentals. It would cost a bunch to even try to track them down, then attempt to prove what transpired, the amount etc. It doesn't seem like it would be a financially productive plan. The local government will likely do what governments usually do - raise taxes.


DisFlan

DSNY FN
05-30-2006, 10:46 PM
As a fellow Canadian, we have to be careful of having foreign property worth over (I think it is $100K) and also when we go to sell our US timeshares we need to get a US Taxpayer ID Number and apply for a waiver to the 10% withholding tax

Cheers
jaysue

Well unless I win the lottery I don't think I will own 100K worth of points for DVC LOL plus if I did own that much I know darn well I wouldn't be selling them the kids would havwe me comitted if I tried to do that LOL...

Blue&Gold
05-31-2006, 12:36 AM
Well thanksfull I live in Canada and they can't touch me for that one LOL.


They may not be able to touch you... But they could certainly touch your American property.

I'm not suggesting that any of this is likely to happen, because I think the cost of enforcement would be prohibitive, but consider if the situation was approached in the manner of a real estate tax lien. I don't think the State of Florida would mind at all seizing your property if you failed to pay real estate taxes.

DSNY FN
05-31-2006, 02:14 PM
They may not be able to touch you... But they could certainly touch your American property.

I'm not suggesting that any of this is likely to happen, because I think the cost of enforcement would be prohibitive, but consider if the situation was approached in the manner of a real estate tax lien. I don't think the State of Florida would mind at all seizing your property if you failed to pay real estate taxes.


Hmm well isn't that interesting mind you I don't think we truly OWN the property do we it is more like a long term rental/lease agreement with Disney isn't it considering it reverts back to them after X number of years just like you can't put a lein on a leased vehicle well not that I am aware of anyhow because you don't own it only if it is paid for in full and you are the clear owner no one else holds the paper on it so I am not sure how that would work but I guess if they run down that path we will start to find out.

tjkraz
05-31-2006, 04:33 PM
Boo-Hoo. I guess the poooooor state of Florida will just have to find another way to pay for their convention center and professional sports arena.

Let's see:

Highway tolls......CHECK
Gas tax.......CHECK
Rental car tax......CHECK
Sales tax........CHECK
Hotel tax........CHECK
Property tax.......CHECK
Airport tax.......CHECK

I'm sure increases to any number (or all) of those will help alleviate the problem.

Or, heaven forbid, they could actually consider a state income tax so that the actual RESIDENTS of the state...you know, those who will predominately benefit from the employment and revenues of a convention center and sports arena...can pick up some of the tab.

Naah....that won't happen.

jaysue
06-01-2006, 03:20 AM
Hmm well isn't that interesting mind you I don't think we truly OWN the property do we it is more like a long term rental/lease agreement with Disney isn't it considering it reverts back to them after X number of years just like you can't put a lein on a leased vehicle well not that I am aware of anyhow because you don't own it only if it is paid for in full and you are the clear owner no one else holds the paper on it so I am not sure how that would work but I guess if they run down that path we will start to find out.

You actually do own an interest in the property for a period of time - this is one of the reasons why our mtce fees include property tax

Cheers
jaysue

Deep-Thots
06-01-2006, 01:37 PM
The whole issue of FL taking away your DVC because you don't pay property taxes on it is a moot one, in practical terms. You pay DVC MF (which, as jaysue pointed out, includes property tax), and then DVC pays the property tax on everyone's behalf. If you don't pay your MF, it's DVC who will come after you, not FL.

I agree, Tim -- FL should have an income tax to save us poor vacationers money!! (Actually, I'm serious; Floridians utilize most of these services, not visitors. Of course, that would never happen. Can you imagine the outcry?)

ErinC
06-01-2006, 02:46 PM
Floridians not only don't pay income tax, they also don't pay sales tax on food, and medication, and other "neccesity" items. Occasionally instead of shopping at Sams Club in Mobile, we go to Pensacola. The amount we save in taxes more than pays for our gas to drive the extra 15 minutes. Florida is going to have to do something in the way of raising taxes on it's citizens, more and more of their school systems are really feeling the effects. They brought in the lottery to supposedly "help" the schools (don't even get me started there), which they see very little help from. I know that the Pensacola school system is whining all the time about the inability to keep teachers because of their lack of decent pay compared to other systems. I know a couple of years ago my cousin in the Bradenton area said they couldn't even scrape up the funds to have summer school that year. If your child didn't pass a subject, they were either being retained, or just sent on to the next grade anyway!:veryconfu I attended all of my school years except college in Florida schools and I don't remember there being financial issues like they have now. I really think it's starting to catch up with them.

Rozzie
06-01-2006, 03:02 PM
After DH got his promotion, we left FL and headed back to Alabama. I have been amazed at how all the taxes over here bite into the extra income. As Erin said, my groceries are 10% higher, we pay State Income Tax now (even though I still work in FL), and taxes on medication. We actually enjoy living back in Alabama, and it felt good to move home, but I tell ya', I had no idea how much more expensive it would be. On the other side, we are paying almost $1000 less in Homeowner's, and $300 less a year in car insurance, don't even get me started on the savings on property tax. So I guess it even's out in the long run.

For those who are waiting for Floridians to step up and start paying State Income Tax, I am afraid we will never ever see that. Whatever governor imposes that would be impeached on the spot! :duck:

DSNY FN
06-01-2006, 11:28 PM
After DH got his promotion, we left FL and headed back to Alabama. I have been amazed at how all the taxes over here bite into the extra income. As Erin said, my groceries are 10% higher, we pay State Income Tax now (even though I still work in FL), and taxes on medication. We actually enjoy living back in Alabama, and it felt good to move home, but I tell ya', I had no idea how much more expensive it would be. On the other side, we are paying almost $1000 less in Homeowner's, and $300 less a year in car insurance, don't even get me started on the savings on property tax. So I guess it even's out in the long run.

For those who are waiting for Floridians to step up and start paying State Income Tax, I am afraid we will never ever see that. Whatever governor imposes that would be impeached on the spot! :duck:


Holy cow you pay a fortune for home insurance ours is only 400 a year for full replacement value of all our property in the home and 250K replacement/rebuild on our home.

ErinC
06-01-2006, 11:42 PM
Holy cow you pay a fortune for home insurance ours is only 400 a year for full replacement value of all our property in the home and 250K replacement/rebuild on our home.

Yes we do, but I haven't seen any Hurricane Ivan's or Katrina's blowing through Canada lately!:hahahaha:

DSNY FN
06-02-2006, 12:15 AM
Yes we do, but I haven't seen any Hurricane Ivan's or Katrina's blowing through Canada lately!:hahahaha:


You are correct they only ever come and visit the far east coast of Canada out in PEI Newfoundland and Nova Scotia LOL we only get the odd tornado in Ontario. Mind you I doubt you see ice storms that shut down everything for weeks on end like we do LOL.