Anyone irritated by renters/rent policies?

[Beca]

Okay....

This was in response to a question that someone posted on another board. The OP was asking if anyone was bothered by the fact that renters often get better views/locations than owners.

I responded, and then thought that sometimes "censorship" on this other board keeps people from saying what they feel. So, I wanted to copy the post here. I would LOVE your feedback as well....am I the only one who feels this way? Is there ANYTHING we as a membership can do about this (assuming we wanted to).

TIA,
Beca

I just get annoyed when I read the boards (it's now even posted on mousesavers.com) that renting from a DVC member is a great way to "stay deluxe at a value price"....then, when my mom goes "home" to VWL (her home resort) she is given the ONE studio with no balcony on her first (and so far, ONLY trip to VWL...she doesn't want to go back there). How fair is that?!!

I get a little "miffed" when people get a "bargain" off of others' very pricey investments. True, people can do what they want with their stuff....but, the "going rate" affects all of us...and frankly, it is just too low!!! Yesterday, I was looking to add a couple of nights to my March vacation because airfare was cheaper if I went on Friday instead of Sunday. I didn't want to have to borrow points, so I went looking for a cheap accomodation. The all-stars were $140 per night(including tax). They were also $140 per night on Sun-Thurs....the same nights that a studio at BCV was 14 per point....the EXACT same amount of money!!! Yet, when CRO rents those rooms, they were renting at $349 per night plus tax.

At $10 per point, we as owners are losing money (unless you bought in a LONG time ago). Even if you paid cash for your DVC, when you add-up the earnings potential of your initial investment (if the same money had been placed elsewhere)...you are losing. And, if you are one of the many who FINANCED your DVC....forget it!!!...you're losing a LOT of money!!!

Sometimes it strikes me as very odd how DVC can be considered a "good" investment when it is such a "bargain" to rent... a renter who knows how to "work the system" is really much smarter than us owners!! But, we are all a little "Disney crazy" and OWNING a piece of the mouse is important to us....so, the cost is worth it.

But, why should we have less-than-stellar views, get smoking rooms when we have asked for non, and get the ONE room without a balcony? You cannot tell me that there were NO renters at VWL that night!! There are ALWAYS renters....that room should not go to a DVC owner....ESPECIALLY a VWL owner.

Now that WDW has changed their AP discount to the "best rate" program....deals are not nearly as good. And, now that mousesavers.com has the "insider's deal" of renting points as the newest and best bargain on deluxe rooms at WDW...renting is not the "quiet little secret" that it used to be....it is big business. And yes, it would not surprise me if WDW didn't see this as "great advertisement" for getting people to buy in. WDW marketing is VERY smart!! I would not be surprised to learn that renters don't, in fact get BETTER rooms than owners...why? Because WDW (and Iger) have said that they are no longer going to build any new theme parks in the US....they are going to concentrate on China....and on EXTENDING their TIMESHARE industry in the US!!! DVC is making WDW a LOT of money!!!

DVC has the perfect set-up right now...all requests are "requests", and there are NO guidelines or "pecking order" for the rooms to be reserved....they have complete control over your rooms. It amazes me that the management could make a "unilateral" decision to go from "first reserved" to "room ready" without the consent of the owners....remember, DVC only owns 4%....they may be the largest owner, but they are FAR from a majority....owners should DEFINITELY have more say in the way rooms are assigned!

And, maybe I am a bit "elitist"....but, so far I have spent $46,000 to be a "member" of DVC....why should a renter get a better view than me (or, any other member)? It shouldn't be anything I ever have to worry about.

The policy of assigning the better rooms/views/requests to owners rather than renters/traders is common practice in MANY timeshares....DVC can adopt this policy.

I am taking friends with us in March....we are each getting a studio on my points. I would have NO problems with us getting a better view than them....that is the "breaks". If we decided to be "gracious", we could switch with them.

But, honestly....I wouldn't be surprised to find that renters often get the best views of OUR deluxe resort at Value prices....that is just terrible, and terribly disheartening.

I will DEFINITELY be asking some questions at the annual meeting!!!

[bavaria]

Beca, you raise some good points. I think that essentially there are two types of owners - those like us who bought fully intending to use our points every year or every other year; and those who bought with the intent of using points for potential financial gain. (I'm not talking about owners who usually use their points, but sometimes rent them out - I'm talking about the sellers we see on eBay or other places renting out masses of points)

I think that renting is okay - I wouldn't have become an owner if I hadn't rented first as a way to test the waters. Do I think that DVC should promote renting? NO! It should not be used as a sales technique as I think that this will continue to encourage the second type of owner, who probably has little interest in the property and it's maintenance etc. I once had a guide who laid out exactly how I could recoup my investment in just over two years by some creative banking/borrowing/renting, and then sell and come out ahead.

As a renter, I requested non-smoking and that was it. At check in I was offered a wide choice of location, etc. But I never assumed that there were any guarantees, and if I did ever rent my points, I would be very clear to the renter of the same.

I also have some concerns about renters and their reflection/impact on owners. In my company, if I arrange a similar 'bargain' for someone, I am responsible for their behaviour. Same like in the airline industry - if an employee gives out a buddy pass, the buddy's behaviour reflects on them.

I strongly believe that WDW and DVC's reservations systems are out of date and do not offer the same features as other systems. Until they are updated, I think that they will simply rely on the current system and hope to please the greatest number of people as often as possible when it comes to requests.

Do I get peeved when I see some of those rental posts? DEFINITELY! but even if we try and increase the price, there will always be people offering lower....

Sorry for rambling, but that's my opinion on the whole situation!

[DSNY FN]

Okay....

This was in response to a question that someone posted on another board. The OP was asking if anyone was bothered by the fact that renters often get better views/locations than owners.

I responded, and then thought that sometimes "censorship" on this other board keeps people from saying what they feel. So, I wanted to copy the post here. I would LOVE your feedback as well....am I the only one who feels this way? Is there ANYTHING we as a membership can do about this (assuming we wanted to).

TIA,
Beca

I just get annoyed when I read the boards (it's now even posted on mousesavers.com) that renting from a DVC member is a great way to "stay deluxe at a value price"....then, when my mom goes "home" to VWL (her home resort) she is given the ONE studio with no balcony on her first (and so far, ONLY trip to VWL...she doesn't want to go back there). How fair is that?!!

I get a little "miffed" when people get a "bargain" off of others' very pricey investments. True, people can do what they want with their stuff....but, the "going rate" affects all of us...and frankly, it is just too low!!! Yesterday, I was looking to add a couple of nights to my March vacation because airfare was cheaper if I went on Friday instead of Sunday. I didn't want to have to borrow points, so I went looking for a cheap accomodation. The all-stars were $140 per night(including tax). They were also $140 per night on Sun-Thurs....the same nights that a studio at BCV was 14 per point....the EXACT same amount of money!!! Yet, when CRO rents those rooms, they were renting at $349 per night plus tax.

At $10 per point, we as owners are losing money (unless you bought in a LONG time ago). Even if you paid cash for your DVC, when you add-up the earnings potential of your initial investment (if the same money had been placed elsewhere)...you are losing. And, if you are one of the many who FINANCED your DVC....forget it!!!...you're losing a LOT of money!!!

Sometimes it strikes me as very odd how DVC can be considered a "good" investment when it is such a "bargain" to rent... a renter who knows how to "work the system" is really much smarter than us owners!! But, we are all a little "Disney crazy" and OWNING a piece of the mouse is important to us....so, the cost is worth it.

But, why should we have less-than-stellar views, get smoking rooms when we have asked for non, and get the ONE room without a balcony? You cannot tell me that there were NO renters at VWL that night!! There are ALWAYS renters....that room should not go to a DVC owner....ESPECIALLY a VWL owner.

Now that WDW has changed their AP discount to the "best rate" program....deals are not nearly as good. And, now that mousesavers.com has the "insider's deal" of renting points as the newest and best bargain on deluxe rooms at WDW...renting is not the "quiet little secret" that it used to be....it is big business. And yes, it would not surprise me if WDW didn't see this as "great advertisement" for getting people to buy in. WDW marketing is VERY smart!! I would not be surprised to learn that renters don't, in fact get BETTER rooms than owners...why? Because WDW (and Iger) have said that they are no longer going to build any new theme parks in the US....they are going to concentrate on China....and on EXTENDING their TIMESHARE industry in the US!!! DVC is making WDW a LOT of money!!!

DVC has the perfect set-up right now...all requests are "requests", and there are NO guidelines or "pecking order" for the rooms to be reserved....they have complete control over your rooms. It amazes me that the management could make a "unilateral" decision to go from "first reserved" to "room ready" without the consent of the owners....remember, DVC only owns 4%....they may be the largest owner, but they are FAR from a majority....owners should DEFINITELY have more say in the way rooms are assigned!

And, maybe I am a bit "elitist"....but, so far I have spent $46,000 to be a "member" of DVC....why should a renter get a better view than me (or, any other member)? It shouldn't be anything I ever have to worry about.

The policy of assigning the better rooms/views/requests to owners rather than renters/traders is common practice in MANY timeshares....DVC can adopt this policy.

I am taking friends with us in March....we are each getting a studio on my points. I would have NO problems with us getting a better view than them....that is the "breaks". If we decided to be "gracious", we could switch with them.

But, honestly....I wouldn't be surprised to find that renters often get the best views of OUR deluxe resort at Value prices....that is just terrible, and terribly disheartening.

I will DEFINITELY be asking some questions at the annual meeting!!!
We don't even consider offers for our points under 12.00 a point if people can't see the deal they are getting even at 12.00 bucks a point then they don't need to be using my points for a stay at Disney. People kill me with teh quest for cheap rental points and I wish there was a standard yes price fixing is what I want just like gas companies LOL. have it like hockey a cap system you can't rent for over x number of dollars a point but you also can't rent for under x number of dollars per point.

[Colorado Belle]

Beca,
That was a very well thought out post. (I'm tempted to say: I feel your pain!)
And I know that you understand the economics...that if others are willing to rent at $10 a point, then people will buy from them.

I don't think the system at DVC is sophisticated enough to actually pick out renters (using an owners point at least) and give them a better room).
But I remember when your mom got that horrid room at WLV and you posted and people gave you a hard time for complaining! Your mom had every right to complain....certainly the floorplan they showed you when you purchased all those points included a balcony.

I rent out enough points to cover dues. Of course, if the price per point were more, I could keep more points for ME. I just got an email from a gal I rented my ressie to (when I decided to go on my 18 night cruise instead). They had a lovely time! In fact, they bought 245 points while they were there...I guess it was something about that Spaceship Earth view from her balcony! They had to move 2 times in 4 days however...from standard to Boardwalk and back to standard for their last night...which, from a purely economic standpoint was stupid on DVC's part...a full room clean each switch. So they werent' given any 'extras' for being renters and then buying. But I do know what you mean.

I rent out my points to other owners (transfers) for 10 and nonowners for 11.
I think I will raise each by $1.00. But I think that if anyone actually advertises rentals, the smart thing would be: tell the renter that you will rent for half of what Disney charges per night with tax added.

And if you go to the meeting, perhaps having a sensible 'plan' for how owners could get a room assignment 'perk' over renters. Hmmmm, maybe owners get to request views, locations BUT renters can only request smoking or non, HA.
Then, if they really do try to assign rooms based on request, owners should get more 'view' rooms with renters picking up what is left.

Well...just an idea. Wishing you luck at the meeting...make sure you let us know what happened!

[crisi]

I see and feel all sides. As Belle points out, the system isn't very sophisticated - i.e. we can give members "first choice" when they are staying in the room, but guests of members (not renters) not traveling with the member would get the short end on a priority system. Since eventually we'd like to give points to kids for Honeymoons, I can see where wishing for such a system could come back to bite us. You can't do much about the market forces at work - when someone bought their points for $60 and pays $4 in dues, $10 is still a good rental price.

What I would like to see is more risk involved for people who want to rent their points. More risk would translate to higher rental fees and make DVC rentals not such a good deal. What sort of risk? Well, room damage should be billed to the members accounts - would keep a lot of people from renting to strangers without getting a damage deposit. Resorts really should be non-smoking with fines for having smoked in the room - billed to the members account. If someone scams on room charges, it should be the member's responsibility. Member perks should be much more strictly enforced - we got the discount at Kona without asking for it by charging to our room key - nice service, but with DVC Member on the room key of all points stays, that sort of thing makes rental an even better deal. Pool hopping should be regulated with wristbands at all resorts like they do at SAB, and you need your membercard to hop.

[cobbler]

I am a new member and didn't buy with the intention of ever renting. Will I rent in the future? Sure if I have to if it means I am going to lose the points.

I am worried, now, that this is a thing people are looking for, better than deluxe accomodations for the price of Pop. However if there is abuse Disney will stop it. Look at AP rates, look at the "abuse" that started with that. Those that booked without voucher or AP and never bought, those that used childs AP to book. Well they took care of that and now you have to have the voucher or AP to book and there are time restrictions. Now I am not a fan of the non-refundable deposit. But they took care of the abuse.

I hope it doesn't come to bite us in the back but if we members stand together and raise the prices we can stop the abuse. There is strength in numbers. I know there will always be some that lowball their points but if the majority don't we can help curb that problem.

Look at the supply and demand with CRT, demand was high, supply is limited, they raised the price. We need to do the same thing. High demand for those wanting to rent, limited supply, raise the price. But it takes everyone to actually have to follow through!

[UsedtobeSmith]

We are going to be renting points in the near future.... and $12 is a number I am looking seriously at.... maybe even $13 for smaller point transactions.

I may even talk to DH about adding on some points just for renting to cover part of our dues.... (which hover around $5000 a year)

[kathyseb]

As of right now, the only request we have made is non smoking.

Every time we have gone home, we have had a great room. Good location, nice view.

When we leave in 27 days, we will be taking my sister with us. We have asked for two studios near each other. So this will be our first test at a real request.
:dust :dust

[Deep-Thots]

Just putting out feelers here....

If we were to have a rent/trade board here, based on your individual feelings (and recognizing that we will not all agree, and in that case, will have to respectfully, kindly, and civilly agree to disagree), what guidelines would you like to see adopted?

If you could provide reasons/rationales for your guidelines, it would be helpful.

Kim

[ripleysmom]

While you do have some points Beca, there will always be renters at DVC resorts. Why? Because that is what DVC itself does. How do you think that you can go on a cruise or stay at a non-DVC resort using your points? DVC has to pay for those things and they do that by renting the points that were traded in.

And while I can certainly understand your wanting to increase the price of points, I disagree with your trying to get other owners to raise their prices as well.

Certainly your reasons seem to be more altruistic than the people who rent their points for profit but ultimately you are helping to accomplish their goals for them. In doing so you fuel even more reservations of peak times (in anticipation of increased profits) which further decreases the pool of available reservations for others.

Increasing the price of rentals also makes renting points out even more attractive to someone that might not want to bother renting their points for $10/pt. Add another $100 or 2 though and now renting looks a little more attractive. Especially if they can now use those extra funds to go somewhere else for a change. That has the potential to increase rentals not decrease them.

Changing the priority of who gets what is a very good idea in terms of owner vs non-owner. Why not check into how to get that changed and then talk to people about voting for it?

[bavaria]

Just putting out feelers here....

If we were to have a rent/trade board here, based on your individual feelings (and recognizing that we will not all agree, and in that case, will have to respectfully, kindly, and civilly agree to disagree), what guidelines would you like to see adopted?

If you could provide reasons/rationales for your guidelines, it would be helpful.

Kim

Having rented points from an owner once, and having had points transferred into my account twice, here are my thoughts:

1) require that someone has been a 'member' here before doing any transactions. I am leary of posters who have never had any previous posts and suddenly offer masses of points, or are looking to rent. Since I assume that prospective DVC owners will use this site, they could be renters as well

2) have 'recommended' contracts available for use - this seems to be a concern for both sides

That's all I can think of - my transactions all went very smoothly. Two were with a stranger, one with someone I feel I 'know' as well as I can though the internet and a few emails etc.

Note that timing was important for me - in the rental situation, I completed the transaction in about 3 hours from the time I found someone to rent points, make a res, and completed my payment. In one of the transfer situations, we conducted the transaction via email and in less than 40 minutes the transaction was complete. For the second transfer, I had no pressing need so snail mail (actually dog sled!) worked.

I don't know how others feel about timing, but I think that there should be some stipulation about communicating so that people aren't left hanging. I had that happen to me once - waited several days for someone to agree to transfer points and finally moved on.

[JimC]

Beca, you raise some good points. I think that essentially there are two types of owners - those like us who bought fully intending to use our points every year or every other year; and those who bought with the intent of using points for potential financial gain. (I'm not talking about owners who usually use their points, but sometimes rent them out - I'm talking about the sellers we see on eBay or other places renting out masses of points).... How many people are doing this? Set aside the corporations that bought for an employee perk, how many "profit grabbing landlords" are lurking out there?

[Colorado Belle]

Hi Deep Thots!
How's the world?

I think we owners could all help each other out with transfering points when needed. It is a simple transaction with Pay Pal and MS. Takes about 5 minutes to do both.

Renting to nonDVC owners is a bit harder. I've written up contracts, sent them by email, done Pay Pal and checks for deposits and/or full payment. I'm not renting points as a business, but I bought a contract with lots of 2004 points that I rented and now I will continue renting just enough points to pay yearly dues. But I've met some really nice people, one who is actually coming with me to BWV and sharing my studio in May!

But I can't really think of any way to stop someone who comes here with a huge number of points and decides to rent them 'as a business'. I guess on the DIS there were some people who faked sad stories, got points for cheap and allegedly sold them high....sort of a scam biz. I can't think of any way to outguess that kind of person and just hope that they don't come over here!

I also think re legal liability , that the administrator has to make it clear that they arent' in any way liable and that the 'service' of a rent/trade board is entirely FBO members who take on full responsibilty themselves.

I only emailed people who posted that they needed points over on the DIS. Perhaps instead of letting us post that we have points for sale, we might instead only let people post that they NEED points...and then those people could be PM'd by anyone who had points to rent???????? And if any of us members had a ressie that we made, but now couldn't use...maybe we could post that, but if it looked like any one person was having way too many ressies that 'they couldn't use', they could be Pm'd and warned???????

Hopefully someone will be able to come up with some good guidelines. I can only say that I have had good experiences both renting (from Disneyberry when I was in ROFR) and then renting out my extra points.

[bavaria]

How many people are doing this? Set aside the corporations that bought for an employee perk, how many "profit grabbing landlords" are lurking out there?

I don't really know, but just a few times browsing on Ebay, plus some other board, shows that there are several people selling reservations on a pretty regular basis. That may happen to all of us from time to time, but the frequency of some leads me to believe that others make a profit from the transactions (otherwise why do it so frequently?)

[crisi]

Since you asked, I'd like a no sock puppet rule here - i.e. one ID per person - one ID per IP address unless you have a householder with two members (those cases are usually well known). On a rent trade board this has the effect that one member cannot play both ends of the transaction with two different accounts. i.e. if you are "buying low and selling high" you are at least doing it with one account in full view of everyone here (or buying low on another board and selling high here or vice versa). In debates this has the effect of people not creating personalities to agree with themselves. I'd also like open ratings of parties - eBay style perhaps moderated pre posting, but at least something rather than a "we don't talk about that."

[UsedtobeSmith]

I would like to see the whole rental agreements made on the board it'self. The terms of each contract, etc full disclouser on the boards, with a follow up report from the renter.... All out in the open. Other rent trade boards, we only see a tiny part of the deal and rarely does someone post their trade was successful.

I am sure there are some problems with having it all out in the open, but it would help people see the progress to it's conclusion and everything inbetween.

[JimC]

I think if I were renting points to a fellow owner and DVC Board member I would offer the points for less. The risk is lower and I am not interested in profiting on helping out a fellow owner.

[DSNY FN]

Since you asked, I'd like a no sock puppet rule here - i.e. one ID per person - one ID per IP address unless you have a householder with two members (those cases are usually well known). On a rent trade board this has the effect that one member cannot play both ends of the transaction with two different accounts. i.e. if you are "buying low and selling high" you are at least doing it with one account in full view of everyone here (or buying low on another board and selling high here or vice versa). In debates this has the effect of people not creating personalities to agree with themselves. I'd also like open ratings of parties - eBay style perhaps moderated pre posting, but at least something rather than a "we don't talk about that."


Yes but the one IP address can be a tough sell some ISP use dynamic ip's that change frequently and some posters post from home and from work and I know my work IP frequently changes by log in for our we server so that coulds as I said be a tough nut to crack.

[gppnj]

At $10 per point, we as owners are losing money (unless you bought in a LONG time ago). Even if you paid cash for your DVC, when you add-up the earnings potential of your initial investment (if the same money had been placed elsewhere)...you are losing. And, if you are one of the many who FINANCED your DVC....forget it!!!...you're losing a LOT of money!!!


Supply and demand always apply. If the rental price is remaining low, that means there are too many members looking to rent out points and too few non-members looking to stay at DVC. Perhaps the best way to combat this would be to more aggressively spread the word about point-renting opportunities. One way to do this would be spread the word on Disney resort boards rather than just on the DVC rental board. We can't really do anything about supply, so the only way to raise the price is to raise demand.

[cruise-o-matic]

Just my $.02.......

"Points" can be rented at any time. So if an owner wants to advertise the 11 month advantage of BCV/BWV points for next F&WF, and their price, that's OK. But, I would like to see a restriction on renting "reservations" though. Maybe restrict those to 6 months or less from the check in date. I know, there's a fine line between the 2, but I don't really condone the practice of speculative renting.

[gppnj]

Just my $.02.......

"Points" can be rented at any time. So if an owner wants to advertise the 11 month advantage of BCV/BWV points for next F&WF, and their price, that's OK. But, I would like to see a restriction on renting "reservations" though. Maybe restrict those to 6 months or less from the check in date. I know, there's a fine line between the 2, but I don't really condone the practice of speculative renting.

I can see your point, but they're the owner's points, and if that's what he or she wants to do with them, that's their prerogative.

[cruise-o-matic]

I can see your point, but they're the owner's points, and if that's what he or she wants to do with them, that's their prerogative.

True, but there are other places the owner can go.

[DSNY FN]

True, but there are other places the owner can go.


We have a network of people that rent points from us when we have any left over or when we want to go on a cruise like the one planned for Dec 06. Otherwise we book a prime week and post it on e bay and generally get far more than the commom 10.00 a point of the rent trade board from the other place. We have gotten as high as 22 dollars a point.

[cruise-o-matic]

We have a network of people that rent points from us when we have any left over or when we want to go on a cruise like the one planned for Dec 06. Otherwise we book a prime week and post it on e bay and generally get far more than the commom 10.00 a point of the rent trade board from the other place. .
Exactly what I mean.....



We have gotten as high as 22 dollars a point. :bugeyed:

[DSNY FN]

Exactly what I mean.....



:bugeyed:
Ya it is crazy what a ressie will sometimes go for on e bay it was a ressie for pres week and it went up really quickly in bids I was suprised I figured it would get to the usual 15 or so that we normally see but this was crazy.

[ripleysmom]

I agree with cruise-o-matic. Speculative renting (good term for it BTW) shows a lack of respect for other DVC members IMHO.

[ripleysmom]

I can see your point, but they're the owner's points, and if that's what he or she wants to do with them, that's their prerogative.
That may be but it shows a lack of respect to other owners and the DVC community as a whole.

[Colorado Belle]

guys in an effort to not step on anyone's toes:

In the grand scheme of things there must be milllions of points. So if someone uses up space on a highly desired Xmas ressie and ends up renting it for profit...while I as an owner can't get that particular week even with a waitlist...how could I possibly infer that that one rented ressie was the reason I couldn't get what I wanted?

I'm not trying to start a debate or hurt anyone's feelings. I just think that we all have our own favorite times to go to the world and we all have our desire for a certain kind of unit/view, and maybe we need to accept that we aren't going to get exactly what we want every time and there isn't any use blaming someone else because they rent points instead of using them for personal use.
In the same vein,I'm not going to get angry at someone who chooses to rent points for bargain price because it suits them, even if it takes away from my renting my points at my price.

The truth is we all paid a lot for our points, we all use them in different ways, and we all have the right to use them, rent them, give them away or waste them. And while it may sometimes seem that it inconveniences our own plans when another owner uses his points in a way that lessens our chances of using points to best benefit us.....in the end, who is to say that one use serves a higher purpose than another?

I hope I'm making sense. I just hate to see us pointing the finger and blaming another owner for how they use their points. It really isn't anybody's business but the owners, IMHO.

At the same time, I 'm sure we could help Kim come up with some rules for listing 'rentals' on this board. And if someone doesn't like those rules then they can rent their points elsewhere. It might be illegal to try to 'fix' a rental price (as JimMIA posted on the DIS), so I think we should try to stick with helpful guidelines to facilitate successful rentals and a wise use of points.

Again, I hope no one feels I'm trying to avoid the issue or step on toes. Maybe I'm just advocating more tolerance for differing views.

Love Disney and DVC and care about you all!

[DSNY FN]

guys in an effort to not step on anyone's toes:

In the grand scheme of things there must be milllions of points. So if someone uses up space on a highly desired Xmas ressie and ends up renting it for profit...while I as an owner can't get that particular week even with a waitlist...how could I possibly infer that that one rented ressie was the reason I couldn't get what I wanted?

I'm not trying to start a debate or hurt anyone's feelings. I just think that we all have our own favorite times to go to the world and we all have our desire for a certain kind of unit/view, and maybe we need to accept that we aren't going to get exactly what we want every time and there isn't any use blaming someone else because they rent points instead of using them for personal use.
In the same vein,I'm not going to get angry at someone who chooses to rent points for bargain price because it suits them, even if it takes away from my renting my points at my price.

The truth is we all paid a lot for our points, we all use them in different ways, and we all have the right to use them, rent them, give them away or waste them. And while it may sometimes seem that it inconveniences our own plans when another owner uses his points in a way that lessens our chances of using points to best benefit us.....in the end, who is to say that one use serves a higher purpose than another?

I hope I'm making sense. I just hate to see us pointing the finger and blaming another owner for how they use their points. It really isn't anybody's business but the owners, IMHO.

At the same time, I 'm sure we could help Kim come up with some rules for listing 'rentals' on this board. And if someone doesn't like those rules then they can rent their points elsewhere. It might be illegal to try to 'fix' a rental price (as JimMIA posted on the DIS), so I think we should try to stick with helpful guidelines to facilitate successful rentals and a wise use of points.

Again, I hope no one feels I'm trying to avoid the issue or step on toes. Maybe I'm just advocating more tolerance for differing views.

Love Disney and DVC and care about you all!

Very appropriate post and very well said. I agree there shouldn't be price fixing even though I would like to see it a little lol I would like to see a bottom option of about 12.00 a point as acceptable go up to whatever you like but maintain a minimum of 12.00 for the base.

[ripleysmom]

I hope I'm making sense. I just hate to see us pointing the finger and blaming another owner for how they use their points. It really isn't anybody's business but the owners, IMHO.

I hate to be contentious (well no not really LOL) but when an owner makes a post talking about how they deliberately book peak times so that they can make more money I'd say that they made it my business wouldn't you?

[jaysue]

I think where it hits home so to speak is when owners who rent book peak periods without having a tenant/renter in place and thus are engaging in speculation - so it is possible that a bonafide transactor (other owner for example) is looking for space at same time and cannot get it since it has been booked by someone on speculation

Eventually that speculator either rents the space or uses it themselves or releases it back into the system. In the interim though there is a chance which I am sure happens where someone who has a bonafide transaction is not able to get their availability confirmed and either has to choose another resort if 7 months in or go on wait list or choose alternate accomodations

I cannot think of any reasonable way to administer any corrective policy in this regard

thanks
jaysue

[crisi]

Yes but the one IP address can be a tough sell some ISP use dynamic ip's that change frequently and some posters post from home and from work and I know my work IP frequently changes by log in for our we server so that coulds as I said be a tough nut to crack.

Far from impossible however. Doc was finding Nick every time he reregistered. There are other things to look for than just IP address - and yes, a clever person can develop ways to not be discovered. But just like you have laws knowing that some people are going to break them and some people are going to get away with it, you have board rules which give you a reason to ban when you have proof of breaking them.

[cruise-o-matic]

What I'd like to see is an "exchange" moniker added too...so we could call it BERT...Board of Exchange, Rent & Trade....

What I mean is say you have BWV points and you want an OKW GV....you agree to use your 11 month advantage rent someone BWV for F&WF in exchange for someone doing the same for you with their OKW points....then the difference in points can be made up with cash or transfer......

[TW1]

This is a great thread and exactly why we need a forum like this. (Now how to get the other 80,000 DVC members talking about this issue, but alas that is for another thread.)

I would like to ask someone to attend an annual meeting and see if this topic can become part of the official recording of the proceedings. It is a very valid concern that deserves a detailed answer from "managment." It should be addressed in an open public forum with all involved parties.

Having the conversation start here is only the first step. If it does not go beyond this style of forum it would be unfortunate.

I have not been to a members association meeting I am not aware of the procedure for bringing discussions to the floor. If someone knows, maybe it could be shared here. I imagine there is some time for open discussion, but it would be well controlled. Perhaps an appeal to the appropriate parties would need to be made in advance that this issue needs to be addressed during the open portion of each meeting and that a representative of this issue would be present who is prepared to present this concern on behalf of a "concerned group of members."

Who knows, we could all be pleasantly surprised that this is an issue being discussed at HQ as well.

[Beca]

This is a great thread and exactly why we need a forum like this. (Now how to get the other 80,000 DVC members talking about this issue, but alas that is for another thread.)

I would like to ask someone to attend an annual meeting and see if this topic can become part of the official recording of the proceedings. It is a very valid concern that deserves a detailed answer from "managment." It should be addressed in an open public forum with all involved parties.

Having the conversation start here is only the first step. If it does not go beyond this style of forum it would be unfortunate.

I have not been to a members association meeting I am not aware of the procedure for bringing discussions to the floor. If someone knows, maybe it could be shared here. I imagine there is some time for open discussion, but it would be well controlled. Perhaps an appeal to the appropriate parties would need to be made in advance that this issue needs to be addressed during the open portion of each meeting and that a representative of this issue would be present who is prepared to present this concern on behalf of a "concerned group of members."

Who knows, we could all be pleasantly surprised that this is an issue being discussed at HQ as well.


Well, if all goes well....I will be attending the annual meeting of BCV owners in December. I have never been before and would LOVE anyone's advice on how best to address issues that I would like to see discussed (I mean, it is my vacation time I am giving up....surely I could/should be heard at the meeting).

Beca

[TW1]

Well, if all goes well....I will be attending the annual meeting of BCV owners in December. I have never been before and would LOVE anyone's advice on how best to address issues that I would like to see discussed (I mean, it is my vacation time I am giving up....surely I could/should be heard at the meeting).

Beca

Surely others have been though I will not revisit the board-that-shall-not-be-named to ask them, while it was a typical discussion at this time of year. It may simply mean calling MS and asking for more information.

[Colorado Belle]

Beca,
I applaud you for going. I have no advice, but I'm sure that you will listen, learn, and then get back to us here as to whether you felt you were able to be heard.

I think we should all buy Beca a round of Yeungling for giving up her vaca time to check this out! :ale:

I wonder if the approach of: can policy re DVC OWNERS receiving preference over DVC 'renters' be reviewed with regard to check in priortiy re view/location over DVC and/or cash renters?

The other matter, of rental of points policy is dicey, as I've heard that Disney doesn't 'allow' points to be rented for cash. Could somebody check to see if I heard that right?

[cobbler]

I am also going to the SSR meeting this year. I figured the chance of me being down during a meeting might be slim in the future and our meeting day happens to fall on a non park day so I am going.

I will also report back what the style of the meeting is like, and take notes on some of the topics discussed.

My meeting for SSR is Dec 1st. We leave to come home on the 2nd so hopefully by Monday I will be a little less tired and able to report.

[DSNY FN]

Far from impossible however. Doc was finding Nick every time he reregistered. There are other things to look for than just IP address - and yes, a clever person can develop ways to not be discovered. But just like you have laws knowing that some people are going to break them and some people are going to get away with it, you have board rules which give you a reason to ban when you have proof of breaking them.

Oh it isn't impossible but it will be a little more difficult to do. The problem I have seen with IP tracking and people trying to beat it is they just use the same old PC to re register with a new username and frre web e mail address those are easy to track. The people that go to public access web services like public libraries etc to re register can skip around it.

[DSNY FN]

I hate to be contentious (well no not really LOL) but when an owner makes a post talking about how they deliberately book peak times so that they can make more money I'd say that they made it my business wouldn't you?

I am pretty sure that the comment is pointing out my post about booking a time like pres week and posting it on e bay yes I do that but very very seldome like 2 times in what 6 years but again everyone is able to do teh same some will some won't I tend to rent them to people I have allrady dealt with and there are always people contacting me to see if I have any points left for them to rent. We generally use all our points every year but occasionally we don't and I like the option of being able to rent them and get the best money I can for them so if that means booking a room then posting it on here or e bay or wherever if I don't have anyone else looking for points and thus maximising my gain from it then it will be done. Now I hope you don't take this post the wrong way as I am not pointing fingers and I am not upset by your post in fact I think it is a good post and I have no problem with it I just wanted to let people see there is another avenue if the need were to arise as it sometime does.

[AFMom]

As far as the Rent/Trade/Exchange Board here - would a minimum set price - without any other price controls - be a possibility? That could be a requirement.
A feedback system would be nice - but I know that would only cause problems in the longrun here on the boards....
I like the idea of having final outcomes of transactions posted - even just short form - no need to get into the real details, but it would eliminate the need for feedback - as long as both renter and rentee agreed on the last post. Hmmmmmm Could get complicated.

I know DVC states that members cannot pay another member for transferred points - at least to their knowledge :Pssst: This is obviously done below Disney radar.
But I thought there was a certain number of points that members could rent out per year for $$$$..... can't remember if it's a $$, a certain % of your points, or just a total number of points altogether. Is this above Disney radar?
One last thing - thanks for the thread, Beca, and for your sacrificed vacation time! :goodvibes

[ripleysmom]

DVC imposes no limitations on an owner's rental of points.

[AFMom]

Good to know - I always feel a little like I'm bending the rules when I'm calling in a reservation for a renter! Don't know why..... :goodvibes

[DSNY FN]

Good to know - I always feel a little like I'm bending the rules when I'm calling in a reservation for a renter! Don't know why..... :goodvibes


That is one of teh best things with our ownership if for some reason you can't use your points you can rent them and not feel guilty or like you are bending the rules. Even if it is to pay cash for a cruise rather than blow the points for it.

[crisi]

As far as the Rent/Trade/Exchange Board here - would a minimum set price - without any other price controls - be a possibility? That could be a requirement.

Price fixing is illegal. However, in order for it to be illegal the people doing the fixing have to control the majority of the market (note, I am not an attorney). I think if "the other place" put in price controls, they would be skating on thin ice, but I don't think that would be the case here (note, I am not an attorney).

However, I don't think its a good idea because there are reasons to rent below the floor. If I have a trip booked now for early January, and decide I can't go shortly before Christmas, and my use year is March, renting points for $6 is a great deal for me. I can probably find someone to take over that reserveration.....

[AFMom]

Oh - I see your point- I haven't been around long enough to really know all the ins and outs of it yet. We've rented 3 times so far - all great experiences - but they've all been planned rentals. I can see how that could certainly happen.
I certainly like the rental ability - I've said this numerous time "over there" - it was the only way we, as a military family, could really buy in to DVC. Knowing that we can rent in off years has made it feasible for us!