BREAKING NEWS: Kingdom Tower EXCLUSIVE New Details Revealed!

[carolina_yankee]

Updated: See Post #52 on Page 6 for List of Source Documents

The document fairy has dropped her special pixie dust on us here at MouseOwners in the form of 189 pages of documentation Disney filed relating to the new Kingdom Tower at Disney’s Contemporary Resort A Leasehold Condominium. Yes, folks, that’s the official name. In later documents, Disney's short hand is Kingdom Tower Resort. So, I guess our abbreviation will have to be KTR (unless you want KT@DCRALC)! Read for further details and floor plans – yes, floor plans!

As we’ve already heard around the boards, the completion of the first phase will be in fall, 2009. Right now, it looks like phase one will include 75 timeshare units with plans for a total of 281 timeshare units or vacation homes. The initial interest will be 3,825, which are 51 7-day use periods per vacation home. This is still a points-based timeshare, so it sounds like the use of a 7 day norm for computing the number of timeshare interests.

Units will be comprised of studios, 1 Bedrooms, 2 Bedrooms, and 3 Bedroom grand villas. Following the AKV standard, the 1 bedroom will have 2 full baths, and the 2 bedrooms will have 3 full baths. The Grand Villas will have a whopping three bedrooms and four full baths! (Plus 5 widescreen TVs!) We don’t have points charts yet, nor do we have a sales brochure, but the maximum points reallocation chart seen around the boards give a maximum breakdown per unit as follows:

Studio: 16 points
1 Bedroom: 39 points
2 Bedroom: 54 points
Grand Villa: 96 points

This isn’t too out of line with the other resorts (for maximum reallocation) and some units are slightly less than the maximum for BCV or BWV. Right now, it doesn’t look like booking categories will be broken down into views, at least at different point values. If there are booking categories, they might be for the same point values – just like at Old Key West. So, we can’t see you’ll get a guaranteed view of the Castle . . .

Here’s some raw data you’ll want to know. The ownership interest will expire January 31, 2060 – making KT the last lease to expire so far. The initial dues will be $3.62 per point. The first year dues are made up of $2.1804 in operating costs, $0.8090 for the capital reserve budget, and the estimated ad valorem tax of $0.8280. We don’t have minimum buy in our cost per points yet. In addition, Mickey is kicking $0.0506 per point to help with first-year operating costs.

Oh, speaking of castles and names. Should the management agreement between Kingdom Tower at Disney’s Contemporary Resort Condominium Association, Inc. ever end, the assocation will be renamed the “Tower Condominium Association, Inc." The resort itself will be renamed the Bay Lake Club. Whoohoo! Oh, and if that ever happens, all those hidden Mickeys, any other ‘fanciful’ character reference, and all Disney references will have to go ‘poof’ instantly. I hope Tinker Bell and the Blue Fairy have another cousin just for that!

Now, here are some plans. First, look at this Grand Villa!

http://mouseowners.com/images/KTRGVsm.jpg
Click here (http://mouseowners.com/images/KTRGV.jpg) for a larger version.

It’s two stories, with its own den area open to the living room below. There are 3 bedrooms, four fill baths, a dining room for 10, and 5 thin widescreen TVs! The plan doesn’t suggest this, but we’re wondering if one of the sofas folds out? Otherwise, why the extra full bath? If so, it’s probably the first floor sofa.

Now, let’s look at a 2 bedroom lock-off.

http://mouseowners.com/images/KTR2BRsm.jpg
Click here (http://mouseowners.com/images/KTR2BR.jpg) for a larger version.

Following the AKV upgrades, it will have 3 full baths and a sleep chair as well as a sleep sofa. The bathroom and kitchenette set up in the studio side is also a bit different with the bathroom vanity and the kitchenette sharing the same space. Interesting.

And, here’s the over all site plan.

http://mouseowners.com/images/KTRSurveysm.jpg
Click here (http://mouseowners.com/images/KTRSurvey.jpg) for a larger version.

You can find the 2 tennis courts, to shuffle board courts, 2 bocce ball courts, 2 hot tubs, and the large feature pool with several interactive features scattered around. It looks like it's going to be the best pool after Storm Along Bay! Doesn’t that look interesting?

As to the building itself, the pedestrian bridge is an integral part of the master plan and is described as such. There’s a disclosure that the presence of the monorail may result in higher than normal noise and light levels. However, I think guests who have stayed in the Aotearoa building of the Polynesian already know that! Of course, Disney has put in language saying there is no guarantee that the monorail or the Contemporary Resort will always be there. (Hmm. I wonder if there’s a document automagically changing KTs name to Kingdom Tower at What Used To Be Disney’s Contemporary Resort A Leasehold Condominium should that happen?)

Now, what else has the document fairy called to our attention? Well, here’s some another bombshell hidden within the bombshells. I leave the language for you:

“Disney resorts at Disneyland California and on the Island of Oahu, Hawaii are only possible component sites which may never be added to the Disney Vacation Club Multi-Site timeshare plan. Do not purchase an interest in a Disney Vacation Club Resort in reliance upon the addition of these component sites.” Wow! This could mean anything from Mickey might not build these resorts, to they might not be DVC resorts, to they might be under a different management altogether. Could Disney be planning two different timeshare systems? Hmmm? I hope Donald won’t be in charge of the second one!

Oh, and what about renting? Yes, folks – the language still clearly allows renting in both the Condominium Rules and Regulations and the Membership Agreement. Full Stop. HOWEVER, there is language in the Condominium Rules and Regulations about the patterns of rental activity that the board could reasonably assume to be commercial. Specifically

"The Association has adopted a policy regarding what constitutes a commercial enterprise, practice or purpose, which policy is a record of the Association and may be viewed upon request.”What’s interesting, though, is that a full paragraph explaining what commercial use is (including the 20 reservation limit) was deleted from the filed copy of the Rules and Regulation. It looks like Mickey wants to keep his options open.

Oh, and the no-smoking policy is also a part of the Condominium Rules and Regulations.

Now, what about some other interesting tidbits? Well, if KT expires in 2060, what’s gong to happen to the other resorts? The Public Offering Statement says that whlle AKV and OKW will continue until 2057,

“the vacation ownership plans for all other Disney Vacation Club resorts expire earlier (significantly earlier in most cases). Do not purchase an interest in the Kingdom Tower Resort in reliance upon the continued existence of any other Disney Vacation Club Resorts beyond the termination dates of those resorts.”And the POS confirms the disclosure in the purchase agreement about Disneyland and Hawaii:

“Vacation Club resorts at Disneyland California and on the Island of Oahu, Hawaii are only possible component sites which may never be added to the Disney Vacation Club Multi-Site timashare plan. Neither DVD nor any of The TWDC Companies have any obligation to build an additional Disney Vacation Club resorts or to add additional component sites to the Disney Vacation Club multi-site timeshare plan. Do not purchase an interest in a Disney Vacation Club Resort in reliance upon the addition of those component sites.”Oh, one last thing - Disney is reporting at the time of filing 112,639 club members. Saratoga Springs has the most, at 39,621. Animal Kingdom Villas currently has 415 (at least at the date of filing). Hilton Head has the least at 4,853.

Well, fellow MouseOwners, this is a lot of information to digest. Our eyes are bit bleary after reading the fine print in the documents, but these are the major points. Happy reading, and may your dreams be filled with plenty of Pixie Dust!

[lenshanem]

Wow! Thanks for the post.

Two things bother me -

Possibly no castle view booking category. This was one of the main reasons I wanted to buy there - to be able to book 11 months out and get that view. I'm really surprised since AKV has multiple booking categories, BWV's BW view and even now OKW's HH category. I think they are setting themselves up for a complete headache if they don't have view categories. I guess I will have to wait for the official point charts. DH said we could buy in, but I seriously might change my mind now. I'm disappointed for sure.

Two, the whole Hawaii and California thing. Why did they pump these two up to the DVC members if we might not even be able to use our points there?!? Talk about dangling the carrot. I would really hope that if that ends up being the case, that those owners will not be able to use their points for our resorts.

I guess I feel a little disillusioned right now...

[carolina_yankee]

Shan - I wouldn't get too disapointed yet.

My speculation about booking categories comes only from the maximum points reallocation chart which lists booking categories for BWV, but not for KTR. However, it also doesn't list booking categoris for AKV. Maybe it's just too early for them to put that information out?

As for the Hawaii/Disneyland bit - that could be cover language to give them an out should things change. Maybe they won't build Hawaii (remember Eagle Pines?). Maybe they have to keep DL for DL given the small size, at least until more units are built? Maybe Hawaii is it's own thing and Disneyland gets to be a part of the system? There are a lot of possibilities, but we do have to be careful to not buy based on speculation . . .

Dirk

[lenshanem]

There are a few reasons I wanted to buy KTR -
guaranteed view categories (I want that castle view!)
ability to walk to the MK
monorail access

It would bother me if I booked 11 months out as an owner and get the lake view, while a nonowner books 7 months out and gets the castle view. Kinda like how it bothers me that I own at BCV and VWL and book 11 months out, but still have to worry when we check in if I'll get a studio with no tub, but others who booked 7 months out or later get the tub. I think if you're paying the dues at the resort and book before anyone else you should at least get a tub in your studio. OK, off my soap box...

I could understand Hawaii since they haven't started working on it yet, but DL? We've had Vacation Magics with pics of the construction - even on the cover! I think it would be really lame if we couldn't use our points there...

[Blue&Gold]

Lots to digest, but as Dirk said, I wouldn't get too far wrapped around the parts about California and Hawaii... Since this comes close to confirming that KTR will be sold [B]before[B] those two resorts, I think they would be opening themselves to significant legal risk if they never build those resorts and folks later claim they bought on the promise of the California and Hawaii properties.

One way to confirm would be for our "more experienced" members who were owners (or became owners) back when Eagle Pines was announced but not built to check their Multi-site POS to see if there is a reference to it. I'm not at home, but I recall mention of Eagle Pines in my 2004-era BoradWalk POS with similar language to the above... Basically saying "you may have heard of these other places, maybe even from us, but don't put your $$$ down expecting to be able to stay there--we might change our minds."

I don't think Disney is looking to create 2 different Timeshare units. Think of the overhead inefficiencies.

[DarthGoofy]

I would think that they would have to have booking categories for the very reasons lenshanem stated. Can you imagine the trouble that no booking categories would cause.:holymoly:

As far as the room designs go, I was interested to see how they used the curve of the building. I think they are doing a great job.

It should be a great resort.

[lenshanem]

I read this to DH about the name change clause. Does this mean they could sell off DVC to like Marriott or something??? Is this in all the POSs?

[TW1]

Thanks Dirk. nice reporting!

[Daddio]

Thanks Dirk, great post.

David

[carolina_yankee]

I read this to DH about the name change clause. Does this mean they could sell off DVC to like Marriott or something??? Is this in all the POSs?
I don't have my SSR POS in front of me, but I remember language about DVC no longer being the management company and such. I think it's just a "CYA" kind of clause in case Disney ever decides to get out of the timeshare business, resort business, or any other business they're in. It's just a way to protect their name.

I'm just amused by the names they chose: "Tower Association" for the association and "Bay Lake Club" for the name of the resort. How innocuous can you get!! I don't remember that level of specificity in any of the SSR documents. However, these are incorporation documents, so it the docs we receive at signing might not have that level of detail in the first place.

Dirk

[jbrowna]

Thanks for all the great information!

Just curious -- any mention in any of this documentation about possible restaurants, shops, etc.? Or anything about possible concierge services?

:confused:

[DisneyNutMary]

I noticed that the layouts clearly show the curvature of the building, so this now has me wondering about the inside curve.
Will there be rooms where the window/balcony area is narrower than the entrance?
Or will these be laid out like SSR, where all rooms are set to view a cretain direction, namely MK?

[Craig Snyder]

WOW, Thanks for the scoop:dancingba


KTR looks awesome only problem is if I go there not sure I would want to leave:woohoodan Rooms are so spacious that my apartment could fit in their closet.

I do agree that they should have categories who wouldn't want to wake up and see the castle while sipping their morning coffee, it would bring the kid out in all of us:loveisint. Especially if you are laying down that chunk of change for the timeshare you want the best for your buck. Hopefully Disney will realize this which I am sure they will, they always seem to know how to get the most money out of everything.

[jmoore72]

Great info! I am a new member. Does Disney offer any *deals* to current DVC members on new properties? KTR would be my choice for our first add on. Looks great....

[Bacala]

Great info, thanks!!

I agree that the language regarding Hawaii and DL is just to cover themselves. I would doubt that two differnt DVCs swould be created, but I would not be suprised if DVC to decide for many reasons that Hawaii was not a venture they wanted to do. This allows them to back out.

I would also be shocked if there are not different booking catagories for castle view.

We'll just have to wait and see, but some really great stuff. Boy, is this resort going to sell.

[DVC Mike]

“Disney resorts at Disneyland California and on the Island of Oahu, Hawaii are only possible component sites which may never be added to the Disney Vacation Club Multi-Site timeshare plan. Do not purchase an interest in a Disney Vacation Club Resort in reliance upon the addition of these component sites.”


This exact language was in the documentation for my last two add-ons at VWL and BCV. This is just a typical disclaimer to say you shouldn't buy assuming these two resorts will ever be completed and is nothing to get excited about. It just gives DVC legal protection in case they don't build either resort.

[DVC Mike]

I read this to DH about the name change clause. Does this mean they could sell off DVC to like Marriott or something??? Is this in all the POSs?

This same language is in every DVC POS that I have (VWL, BWV, BCV and AKV).

[DVC Mike]

There are a few reasons I wanted to buy KTR -
guaranteed view categories (I want that castle view!)
ability to walk to the MK
monorail access

It would bother me if I booked 11 months out as an owner and get the lake view, while a nonowner books 7 months out and gets the castle view.


The booking categories detailed point charts aren't out yet, so I wouldn't get worried. I'm certain they'll have multiple views like AKV.

[carolina_yankee]

Thanks for all the great information!

Just curious -- any mention in any of this documentation about possible restaurants, shops, etc.? Or anything about possible concierge services?

:confused:

The Declaration of Condominium used the AKV declaration as its template. All language relating to concierge level room has been crossed out so I wouldn't expect there to be concierge at KTR.

There is no specific reference to shops or restaurants in KTR itself. Obviously there will be. There is reference to commercial use, which would be these elements. There is also this language:

The is no guaranty that any portion of the Contemporary Resort (including restaurants, bars and other hotel amenities) or the monorail system will continue in operation and The TWDC Companies shall be entitled to cease or modify operations of any portion(s) of the Contemporary Resort at any time. Do not purchase an interest in the Kingdom Tower Resort in reliance upon the continued operation of the Contemporary Resort.

Dirk

[carolina_yankee]

The booking categories detailed point charts aren't out yet, so I wouldn't get worried. I'm certain they'll have multiple views like AKV.

One note about the Maximum Point Reallocation table is that the the tables for all of the other resorts are available in the current documentation members receive at signing. It's impossible to make any firm conclusions about points allocations are views based on those charts. AKV doesn't views listed on their charts, but they offer views. Boardwalk is the only one that does. We'll just have to see what the actual point charts bring.

Any other conclusions about point spreads is just speculation at this point.

Dirk

[carolina_yankee]

I noticed that the layouts clearly show the curvature of the building, so this now has me wondering about the inside curve.
Will there be rooms where the window/balcony area is narrower than the entrance?
Or will these be laid out like SSR, where all rooms are set to view a cretain direction, namely MK?

That's a good question. Perhaps there are architects or designers among us who can make that guess based on floor plan and building size?

Dirk

[goofy4mickey]

Wow! I have no idea how you all dig up this info but it's fantastic! I'm really excited about KTR!

Like others, I feel pretty sure booking categories are still coming and just not detailed yet. I think you just have to relax and wait to see. :)

Thank you!!

[jbrowna]

The Declaration of Condominium used the AKV declaration as its template. All language relating to concierge level room has been crossed out so I wouldn't expect there to be concierge at KTR.

There is no specific reference to shops or restaurants in KTR itself. Obviously there will be. There is reference to commercial use, which would be these elements. There is also this language:



Dirk

Thanks for the quick reply! Since restaurants do come-and-go over time, and are always subject to change, I can see why they'd want to keep all their options for the future.

All-in-all the information you've posted seems to me to affirm that this will be a great addition to the DVC line-up! :thumbsup:

Thanks again! :handshake

[DVC Mike]

The document fairy has dropped her special pixie dust on us here at MouseOwners in the form of 189 pages of documentation Disney filed

What Dirk, you're not going to scan and post all 189 pages for us to read? :tongue:

[Colorado Belle]

HA, MIKE!

Shan: no worries, this is legal docs so everything that could possibly be used to file suit against the Mouse has to be disclaimed. And as to views...I'm sure there will be at least two view categories, tho it's clear that some of the outside curve rooms will have not-so-great views. ('They should have reversed the curve like I told em, but the Mouse hardly ever listens to the likes of me!)

It's funny at what specifics interests or worries the individual reader: for me, I kept looking at the studio lock-off wondering where the bathroom sink was. Yes, I could tell that in the closed off kitchen area (I don't think I like that) there was something that looked like bathroom sinks....but I couldn't quite make the leap. So MOuse, if you are reading, maybe you could reconsider a bit: There is the problem of after-potty we immediately wash hands...not after we traipsie about and especially go into the kitchen. If they had a little 'modern' washbowl right by the toilet, this would solve that problem. Next: I suppose if there is enough storage that all the 'vanity' stuff could be put up, and I realize that these days many people shave in the shower...but not sure I like the idea of the vanity area in the kitchen. I'd do better if it were in the bedroom part...cuz i like to keep my cooking separate from hair blowing, ya know?

[harmrose22]

Thanks for posting this exciting info, Dirk! I am starting to get excited again about KTR!

[Colorado Belle]

I also noticed that in the grandvilla, the upstairs bedroom A(which is the same as the guest bedroom) attaches to the guest bath while the other upstairs guest bedroom attaches to the 'master' bath.

And perhaps I'm seeing (or not seeing the small print) but the square in the closet of the studio looks like it might be....a WASHER/DRYER??????!!!!! NOw THAT would be great! EDIT: No drat, it's the A/C (if I look at the grand villa I can see a/c written on the same square.

So maybe the drawings are 'preliminary'

[RweTHEREyet]

Oh my, this just keeps getting better and better all the time. I think I am going to have to take on a second job to get all the points I am going to want here.

[RweTHEREyet]

HA, MIKE!

Shan: no worries, this is legal docs so everything that could possibly be used to file suit against the Mouse has to be disclaimed. And as to views...I'm sure there will be at least two view categories, tho it's clear that some of the outside curve rooms will have not-so-great views. ('They should have reversed the curve like I told em, but the Mouse hardly ever listens to the likes of me!)

It's funny at what specifics interests or worries the individual reader: for me, I kept looking at the studio lock-off wondering where the bathroom sink was. Yes, I could tell that in the closed off kitchen area (I don't think I like that) there was something that looked like bathroom sinks....but I couldn't quite make the leap. So MOuse, if you are reading, maybe you could reconsider a bit: There is the problem of after-potty we immediately wash hands...not after we traipsie about and especially go into the kitchen. If they had a little 'modern' washbowl right by the toilet, this would solve that problem. Next: I suppose if there is enough storage that all the 'vanity' stuff could be put up, and I realize that these days many people shave in the shower...but not sure I like the idea of the vanity area in the kitchen. I'd do better if it were in the bedroom part...cuz i like to keep my cooking separate from hair blowing, ya know?


O.k. after reading your post, I, too, thought it strange that the vanity seemed to be in the kitchen. Then, after thinking about it, in both BCV and SSR, in the studio, the vanity is directly across from the kitchenette, granted with more space inbetween the two. At both BCV and SSR, you do walk right out of the water closet and the vanity is right there and at KTR, it appears you must go around the wall, but it isn't too terribly different.

After thinking about it some more, it looks like it would have been just as easy to just flip that wall the other way and have the vanity in the water closet, but then that might be too much closeness for two people to get ready in that little bathroom.

Actually, after thinking about it some more, I think I amthinking about this way tooooo much.

[PolyColleen]

I sure hope they offer booking categories. In fact I wish ALL the DVC resorts did! I am getting up on the soapbox Shan got down from, and saying that OWNERS who books at 11 months out DESERVE the best rooms. That would be a real perk to owning at ANY of the DVC resorts... I suppose they do not think they NEED any "promises" to get people to buy this one, though. Most of us would happily sleep in the broom closet.

Now -- who wants to comment on whether or not other DVC'ers will be allowed to use that pool? I bet it will be restricted like SAB is.

[grumpy]

Thanks for the info. I got more info from this post then I have from my guide :)

Looking forward to seeing the cost per point and the points chart. Then I'll deide if I'll buy it or AKV.

I love the idea of a monorail resort but after my stay at AKV I kind of fell in love with the peacefulness there

:jumpingbe

[carolina_yankee]

Now -- who wants to comment on whether or not other DVC'ers will be allowed to use that pool? I bet it will be restricted like SAB is.

I've wondered that, too. According to the Common Facilities Agreement, it looks like DVD grants to Worldco (Walt Disney World) the right to use the condominium pool for Worldco guests staying at the CR. Likewise, Worldco grants DVD rights for its guests at KTR to use the CR pools and facilities for ithe duration of their say. All of this is subject to any other rules or regulations that may be put in place. It doesn't say anything about other resorts.

In other words, guests in either resort (CR or KTR) can use the pool, tennis courts, beaches of the other resort.



Dirk

[cincinmouse]

2009 ESTIMATED ANNUAL DUES ASSESSMENT
The estimated Annual Dues for the year January 1, 2009 through December 31. 2009 are $3.6709 per Vacation Point,
which is comprised of the estimated Annual Operating Budget ($2.0339 per Vacation Point), the estimated Annual
Capital Reserves Budget ($0.8090 per Vacation Point) and the estimated ad valorem taxes ($0.8280 per Vacation Point).
The total amount of Annual Dues paid by a Purchaser or Owner is determined by multiplying the total number of
Vacation Points represented by the Ownership Interest purchased by $3.6709. For example, if the Ownership lnterest is
represented by 230 Vacation Points, the estimated Annual Dues would be $844.31.

Don't these dues seem low. I believe eveyone was thinking these might be much higher. This is one of the reasons I did not wait around for this so I purchased SSR. If I would have know they be this low I might have waited

I have seen the budget which can be found below It is based on 75 vacation homes is that the reason?

http://dvcnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=354&Itemid=1

[RweTHEREyet]

I hope that someone that can read these blueprints can take the exterior one and maybe colorize it to show what is what. I can make a Mickey Head pool, the slide and the main pool, but nothing else. Anyone able to do this?

[dmiller109]

Thanks.
Now if we just know how much the points would cost. I believe I read some where that Greenban stated it may be around May when we will see a price for the points and the sale of those points.

[Lisa]

It's funny at what specifics interests or worries the individual reader: for me, I kept looking at the studio lock-off wondering where the bathroom sink was. Yes, I could tell that in the closed off kitchen area (I don't think I like that) there was something that looked like bathroom sinks....but I couldn't quite make the leap. So MOuse, if you are reading, maybe you could reconsider a bit: There is the problem of after-potty we immediately wash hands...not after we traipsie about and especially go into the kitchen. If they had a little 'modern' washbowl right by the toilet, this would solve that problem. Next: I suppose if there is enough storage that all the 'vanity' stuff could be put up, and I realize that these days many people shave in the shower...but not sure I like the idea of the vanity area in the kitchen. I'd do better if it were in the bedroom part...cuz i like to keep my cooking separate from hair blowing, ya know?


So funny CB! I was thinking the exact thing about the bathrooms sink! Just about to post a 'where's the sink???' when I saw you were having the same issue.

[carolina_yankee]

[I]2009 ESTIMATED ANNUAL DUES ASSESSMENT
The estimated Annual Dues for the year January 1, 2009 through December 31. 2009 are $3.6709 per Vacation Point,

Don't these dues seem low. I believe eveyone was thinking these might be much higher. This is one of the reasons I did not wait around for this so I purchased SSR. If I would have know they be this low I might have waited

I have seen the budget which can be found below It is based on 75 vacation homes is that the reason?

http://dvcnews.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=354&Itemid=1

We weren't able to post the original documents because they were given to us on condition of anonymity.

Here's the first year budget:

http://carolinayankee.smugmug.com/photos/260138145_gUEyD-L.jpg

In addition the to the $3.6709, the developer is kicking in another $0.0506, which takes the dues to $3.7215. Remember, KTR will only open in Fall 2009 so the first year budget is going to be lower. No need for front desk our Mousekeeping.

In an effort to afford all existing Owners and current purchasers with a fair and equitable dues assesment, Disney Vacation Developmont, Inc. ("DVD") has agreed to subsidize the 2009 estimated Annual Operating Budget in the amount of $0.0506 per vacation point . . .

Dirk

[Daitcher]

This exact language was in the documentation for my last two add-ons at VWL and BCV. This is just a typical disclaimer to say you shouldn't buy assuming these two resorts will ever be completed and is nothing to get excited about. It just gives DVC legal protection in case they don't build either resort.



Exactly correct. Just like the language that says DVC shouldn't be bought as an investment. It just covers their buts. Actually the investment clause is mandated by Florida Timeshare Law after many folks have bought properties that were worthless the minute they signed. Buyer protection.

California and Hawaii are both being built. Don't worry folks.

Also the last document posted has the name listed at the bottom as the Villas at the Contemporary Resort (VAC). Those other names may be legal names but I doubt we'll ever see them in use. Doesn't fit at all with the current names we've seen.

Great stuff Dirk. I'm sure this will be a hot property!


DAVE

[Daitcher]

Thanks.
Now if we just know how much the points would cost. I believe I read some where that Greenban stated it may be around May when we will see a price for the points and the sale of those points.


Where is Greenban?????

Anyone else miss his posts?????:boohoohoo



DAVE

[tomandrobin]

Great work! :clappingh

22 months to go before my first stay at the new resort!!

[Blue&Gold]

Where is Greenban?????

Anyone else miss his posts?????:boohoohoo



DAVE

Tony wrote a while back that he would be "off the net" for a while due to his practice expanding or something similar... He is missed!

[Blue&Gold]

Thanks.
Now if we just know how much the points would cost. I believe I read some where that Greenban stated it may be around May when we will see a price for the points and the sale of those points.

If "past is prelude" you can assume that by next January the base price for DVC points will be in the $110 range.

I can't imagine DVD will feel the need to "incentivize" buyers for KTR... No $10 off, free developer points, and free passes with this one, folks (IMO).

My belief is that the point price will be in line with historical trends, but it is in the "points per night" world that sticker shock may set in. Actually, there is info out showing that the overall point costs for the entire resort will be somewhere in the range of 8%-17% higher than BWV preferred (BCV/VWL/AKV Savannah) "standard."

What we don't know is how that up-to 17% higher total will be distributed across the seasons, or any "view" booking categories. My guess is that if you are aiming for a Studio and accept a pool or Lake view, you'll be pleasantly surprised. If the only thing you'll accept is a 2BR "Castle" view on New Year's eve, best get the checkbook warmed up.

[mathmouse]

Thanks so much for posting all this information! What fun!

Fall 2009 is not that far away...in fact, the 11 month booking window for fall 2009 will be here before we know it. I was still seeing this as a far-off thing, though having seen recent construction photos, they do seem to be buzzing right along.

An interesting question is whether owners in other resorts will ever stand the faintest chance of getting into KTV/CRV/VAC or whatever we're calling it at 7 months? I have this fantasy of traveling slowly "around the World", one resort a year, checking out all of them....maybe I'll be able to squeeze in an odd night or two if we waitlist, but I'll bet it pretty booked up with ecstatic new owners for a while!

Unrelated: glad to hear the Frog is still out there somewhere; hope he returns soon.

[cincinmouse]

We weren't able to post the original documents because they were given to us on condition of anonymity.

Here's the first year budget:


In addition the to the $3.6709, the developer is kicking in another $0.0506, which takes the dues to $3.7215. Remember, KTR will only open in Fall 2009 so the first year budget is going to be lower. No need for front desk our Mousekeeping.

Dirk

Is this situation comparable to AKV initial offering because not all of that is DVC. When the first AKV dues came out were they lower than they are now? I know they are higher to pay for the animals.

So in 2010 do you expect dues to go up higher when those other cost go into effect.

PS sorry if I should not have posted the link I just could not figure out how to cut and paste the data in.

[RweTHEREyet]

Tony wrote a while back that he would be "off the net" for a while due to his practice expanding or something similar... He is missed!

What does a frog practice?

[DVC Mike]

What does a frog practice?

Catching flies...

[skibum]

Thanks for the exciting news.
Great job!

[jiggerj]

Thanks Dirk! :thumbsup: This is soooo exciting! :woohoo:

[Colorado Belle]

frogs practice:
catching flies
croaking
rivet-ing
leaping
hop-scotch
tongue lashing
being green

Tony throws in a little medical advice to boot.
It's HARD being green!

Hope all is well Tony and that you'll be posting here or elsewhere soon!:goodvibes

[carolina_yankee]

Is this situation comparable to AKV initial offering because not all of that is DVC. When the first AKV dues came out were they lower than they are now? I know they are higher to pay for the animals.

So in 2010 do you expect dues to go up higher when those other cost go into effect.

PS sorry if I should not have posted the link I just could not figure out how to cut and paste the data in.

Don't worry about the link - unlike a certain major contributor to our membership (Ahem!), we don't star out other sites (with one notable exception being said large site).

I don't have the right personality type to predict things like dues, so I hope other more analytical minds will kick in and give us their best guess. I would assume the operating budget for year 2 would be significantly higher than year one given it will be open more, but I can't imagine dues would be wildly out of line with other resorts. Couldn't they even be less than AKV since there aren't animals?

Monorail sharing can't be that expensive given it has be shared with 3 other resorts, and isn't exclusively for resort guests in the first place. Plus, monorail costs are fairly fixed - just staff, electricity and maintenance, right? Would they even have to add more trains?

Dirk

[Blue&Gold]

I would expect a single high-rise building is cheaper to maintain than the many smaller spread-out buildings at OKW and SSR. Then again, might need greater capital reserves because of potential hurricane damage...

[carolina_yankee]

Here's the list of documents used for the article in post 1.

There are two sets, as separated below. Some are highly detailed technical documents, others are fairly straight forward. For those who enjoy a nice evening of analysis, have fun and share your thoughts!

Click on the Title to download the .pdf of that document.

Master Declaration of Covenants, Conditions, and Restrictions (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/KTR_Master_Declaration.pdf)
Association Articles of Incorporation (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/Assoc_Art_Inc.pdf)
Association By-laws (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/KTR_Assoc_Bylaws.pdf)
Memorandum of Ground Lease (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/KTR_Ground_Lease.pdf)
Property Management Agreement (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/8_KTR_Prop_Mgmt.pdf)
Estimated Budget and Schedule of Required Purchasers' Expenses (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/9_KTR_Budget.pdf)
Plot Plan (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/10_KTR_PlotPlan.pdf)
Floor Plans (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/11_KTR_FloorPlan.pdf)
Survey (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/12_KTR_SURVEY.pdf)
Purchase Contract (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/17_KTR_Purchase_contract.pdf)
Purchaser Deposit Escrow Agreement (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/17_KTR_Escrow.pdf)
Condominium Rules and Regulations (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/18_KTR_rules.pdf)
DVC Resort Agreement; Disney Vacation Club Membership Agreement, Master Cotenancy Agreement (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/19_KTR_Resort_Membership.pdf)
Form of Agreement for Tax Escrow Payments (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/21_KTR_Tax_Escrow.pdf)
Description of Exhibits not Provided to Purchasers (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/KTR_Not_Delv.pdf)

Single Site/Component Site Timeshare Filing Statement (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/A_Timeshare_Filing.pdf)
Buena Vista Trading Company Disclosure Document for Disney Vacation Club (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/B_Disc_Doc.pdf)
Maximum Reallocation Chart (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/C_Reallocation.pdf)
Overview (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/D_Overview.pdf)
Common Facilities Agreement (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/E_Common_Fac.pdf)
Public Offering Statement Text (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/F_KTR_POS.pdf)
Declaration of Condominium (http://www.carolinayankee.net/parking/G_Dec_Condo.pdf)

[IspeakWhale]

Wow! You did alot of working adding all these docs.

Thanks.

[carolina_yankee]

You're welcome. This is the complete offering with the exception of a couple of cover letters and one or 2 financial gobledygook or property-geek pages. (It was late, I had a long day, I was tired!)

I broke out individual documents from each of the packets so they wouldn't be large files. All are under 2 mb, most are under 1 mb, or even 500kb. You can pick and choose which ones you want to deal with, or find a particular section more quickly.

I think it's interesting to see documents that Disney won't have to release to the purchaser as well.

Those are:

Memorandum of Ground Lease
Property Management Agreement
Survery, Floor, and Plot plans
Purchaser Deposit Escrow Agreement
Kingdom Tower Ad Valorem Tax Escrow Agreement
Letter of Escrow Agent (I didn't put letters up)
Percentage Interest in Common Elements (I didn't put this up either)
Home Resort Rules and Regulations


Even though Rules and Regulations aren't released as a separate document, they are included in the POS.

[withdisneyspirit]

For the first time in over three years, I have started to work on convincing hubby we should have more points...at KTR, of course :D

[NYDVC]

For whats it worth, I got on the KTR list with my guide yesterday. She felt that Disney would have to do something soon, because its certainly out in the open now. I was number 3 on her list to call. Seems like her list would be longer at this point but she is in California which might be why.

She did say she was not given any details anbd were not trained on KTR. Not sure what specific training they would need for each resort but maybe room sizes, maintenance fees and stuff like that.

[RweTHEREyet]

I hope that someone that can read these blueprints can take the exterior one and maybe colorize it to show what is what. I can make a Mickey Head pool, the slide and the main pool, but nothing else. Anyone able to do this?

Anyone know how to do this? I sure don't.

[Lisa]

She did say she was not given any details anbd were not trained on KTR. Not sure what specific training they would need for each resort but maybe room sizes, maintenance fees and stuff like that.

I sure hope they do train them first and well. When I was trying to get information about AKV it was very sad that I knew more about it then my very experienced guide. It was really a mess.

[rnawiz]

If you look at the Purchase Contract, the date for "Estimated date unit is available for occupancy" is March 31, 2009.

Of course, the other dates are ficticious, so this one may be as well.

The truly frightening part is the purchase price is listed as 25650.00, and the number of points is stated to be 160 points. Thats just over $160/ point. YIKES :holymoly:Here's hoping that's not acurate!!

[Blue&Gold]

If you look at the Purchase Contract, the date for "Estimated date unit is available for occupancy" is March 31, 2009.

Of course, the other dates are ficticious, so this one may be as well.

The truly frightening part is the purchase price is listed as 25650.00, and the number of points is stated to be 160 points. Thats just over $160/ point. YIKES :holymoly:Here's hoping that's not acurate!!

The price could also be ficticious...

And if it's not, we'll be buying at OKW next...

[goofy4mickey]

A little off topic - but it seems that people have asked their guide to call them as soon as KTR is available and it seems guides have no problem doing this. (makes sense - it's commission, right??) Our guide said they weren't allowed to have a list! This is SO frustrating to me - I've asked once to change guides and the supervisor didn't let me. (Of course, I now know I just need to be a smidge more direct. LOL) We've bought 910 points through this guide and she can't put our name on a list to call when the new resort is out?? I swear we are low maintenance and every time I've called her, we've added on - I just don't get it! Think we need a new guide or is this normal??

[Daitcher]

A little off topic - but it seems that people have asked their guide to call them as soon as KTR is available and it seems guides have no problem doing this. (makes sense - it's commission, right??) Our guide said they weren't allowed to have a list! This is SO frustrating to me - I've asked once to change guides and the supervisor didn't let me. (Of course, I now know I just need to be a smidge more direct. LOL) We've bought 910 points through this guide and she can't put our name on a list to call when the new resort is out?? I swear we are low maintenance and every time I've called her, we've added on - I just don't get it! Think we need a new guide or is this normal??




This is my opion only but I believe your guide is following the rules as spelled out by DVC.

I would much rather have a rule follower as a guide than the "lets be friends" guide that will do naything for a sale. If they are willing to break the rule making a list then they may be willing to break a few more and some of those may not be in your favor.


DAVE

[RweTHEREyet]

'when did the guides start working on commission? At one time, there was no commission involved, and that was one reason it was not a high pressure sales pitch. Has this changed?

[rnawiz]

Ok, I realize I shouldn't read too much into a document that states that Mickey M Member and Minnie M Member are purchasers, but my mind is stuck on the $25650.00 on the purchase contract.
There's only one reasonable combination that yields whole numbers of points purchased with whole dollars:
At $114/point, it works out to 225 points.
Sounds more reasonable to me.

If I use half dollars, it works for $112.5, which would be 228 points.

Back to wait and see mode.....

[NYDVC]

This is my opion only but I believe your guide is following the rules as spelled out by DVC.

I would much rather have a rule follower as a guide than the "lets be friends" guide that will do naything for a sale. If they are willing to break the rule making a list then they may be willing to break a few more and some of those may not be in your favor.


DAVE


why would Disney prevent their guides from keeping a list of people who are interested in a particular venue? In either case, my guess is we will know when they are available at the same time or a little sooner then the guides anyway. Especially if Froggy is in the picture :)

[kdzgon]

This is my opion only but I believe your guide is following the rules as spelled out by DVC. ....
DAVE

I believe the rule has to do with Fl RE law more so than anything that originated with Disney.

'when did the guides start working on commission? At one time, there was no commission involved, and that was one reason it was not a high pressure sales pitch. Has this changed?

The guides that sell DVC are licensed real estate agents - I'd think they have always worked on commission, no? If not, I'd guess their compensation is incentive directed at a minimum.

why would Disney prevent their guides from keeping a list of people who are interested in a particular venue? In either case, my guess is we will know when they are available at the same time or a little sooner then the guides anyway. Especially if Froggy is in the picture :)

I hope I'm on a "list" with my guide, but if not I'll be calling as soon as these are announced. I suspect many if most guides will maintain a prospect list even if they do not acknowledge its' existence. IMO it would be a prudent thing to do as a salesperson, as long as it is not classified as an "official" list of any sort in order to comply with regs.

[kdzgon]

BTW, I forgot the most important part of my thoughts: thanks ever so much for all the effort in this thread!! :cheers2::cheers2::cheers2: to you!

[Mello]

Anyone know how to do this? I sure don't.

I was wondering about the Mickey head. Perhaps the smaller pool looking thing to the north is a water play area or kiddy pool? I can see the beach with the path leading to it, and does it look like a bridge over some water to get to the pool area? The slide looks similar to SSR's & AKV's. I'd love to see some further analysis of it - I remember someone did that for AKV and they were right on. So interesting!

[Mello]

A little off topic - but it seems that people have asked their guide to call them as soon as KTR is available and it seems guides have no problem doing this. (makes sense - it's commission, right??) Our guide said they weren't allowed to have a list! This is SO frustrating to me - I've asked once to change guides and the supervisor didn't let me. (Of course, I now know I just need to be a smidge more direct. LOL) We've bought 910 points through this guide and she can't put our name on a list to call when the new resort is out?? I swear we are low maintenance and every time I've called her, we've added on - I just don't get it! Think we need a new guide or is this normal??

You'll probably know it's available for sale before your guide does anyway!

[goofy4mickey]

You'll probably know it's available for sale before your guide does anyway!

Isn't that the truth? Between Dirk's info and the frog we do manage to get some great information here!

I agree that she is a rule follower - I've always thought that she sells what Disney tells her to sell the way they tell her to sell it so that sort of confirms my impression of her to begin with. And you're right, it's not a bad thing - just frustrating sometimes! At least "rules are rules" people are easy to predict. I'm relaxing now - honestly, I'll call her as soon as we hear anything about KTR starting to sell anyways -

Thanks!

[grumpy]

You'll probably know it's available for sale before your guide does anyway!


Exactly what my guide said. I would know from these types of boards before they even find out

[RweTHEREyet]

The guides that sell DVC are licensed real estate agents - I'd think they have always worked on commission, no? If not, I'd guess their compensation is incentive directed at a minimum.

.

When we first started talking to our guide at the time, back in the 90's, Marc turner in Hilton Head, we had some specific conversations about this, and he shared with us that they did not work on commission, and that is why the sales pitch was not a pushy one. That may have changed over the years, but it was true at the time.

[carolina_yankee]

I don't think they work on commission now, either. There has to be incentives for doing well, though. Our guide has been with WDW for 20 years, and 12 years with DVC. She said Mickey pays her very, very well, but we still had to nearly beg her to let us buy. She also mentioned that guides have been canned very quickly for saying the wrong thing to a guest, or for even leaving messy conference rooms. I get the sense you have to stick slavishly to the rules, and you have to perform in order to make it there. (Not a bad thing.)

Dirk

[Blue&Gold]

Our Guide said that he was allowed to put a code on our "permanent record" that said we wanted to be contacted whenever new information or product was available.

Closest he would come to a list.

Frankly, if you know you want to buy, you don't ever have to talk to your Guide. Call their number, and if you get them, fine... If you get their voicemail, just leave your member number, describe what you want to buy, and your credit card number that you are using for the down payment.

I did that for the last add-on we did and all he did was call back to confirm the information. He already had all his paperwork done...

[Daitcher]

Any reasons folks are in such a rush to buy points for a resort that doesn't even officially exist yet?

That resort will be selling for years. Why rush to buy ASAP? I guarantee that the initial offer won't be DVC's best so again why rush? :chillpill



DAVE

[kdzgon]

Any reasons folks are in such a rush to buy points for a resort that doesn't even officially exist yet?

That resort will be selling for years. Why rush to buy ASAP? I guarantee that the initial offer won't be DVC's best so again why rush? :chillpill



DAVE

I'm not sure if it will be the best offer or not, but neither do I agree it's "guaranteed" it won't be [the best offer].

For me it is very much "buy where you want to stay". As long as we have younger grands, I want to stay there, starting with the first phase. (While the Contemporary is my least favorite monorail resort, the ability to walk to the MK is absolutely wonderful with little ones.) Even if popularity levels off, I believe demand will be very strong at the beginning.

[kdzgon]

When we first started talking to our guide at the time, back in the 90's, Marc turner in Hilton Head, we had some specific conversations about this, and he shared with us that they did not work on commission, and that is why the sales pitch was not a pushy one. That may have changed over the years, but it was true at the time.

Thanks - I never heard that. We're actually pretty new owners, but have been making up for lost time the past year and a half!

[RweTHEREyet]

I'm not sure if it will be the best offer or not, but neither do I agree it's "guaranteed" it won't be [the best offer].

For me it is very much "buy where you want to stay". As long as we have younger grands, I want to stay there, starting with the first phase. (While the Contemporary is my least favorite monorail resort, the ability to walk to the MK is absolutely wonderful with little ones.) Even if popularity levels off, I believe demand will be very strong at the beginning.

I agree. And I know it would eat at me until I made at least one small purchase. And if by chance it does sell for years, then it gives me the oppportunity to buy up a few small quantities of points for cash without having to finance and I will be ready to book at the 11-month window when it opens up for reservations.

Wonder if they will have anything like the offer they made to initial purchasers at AKV with getting your name on a wall hanging or something similar.

[Daitcher]

I'm not sure if it will be the best offer or not, but neither do I agree it's "guaranteed" it won't be [the best offer].

For me it is very much "buy where you want to stay". As long as we have younger grands, I want to stay there, starting with the first phase. (While the Contemporary is my least favorite monorail resort, the ability to walk to the MK is absolutely wonderful with little ones.) Even if popularity levels off, I believe demand will be very strong at the beginning.




Guarantee is a strong word but I believe it won't be the best offer. It wasn't for AKV so why would it be for VAC?

Demand WILL be high intially without incentives. They will sell it for a while and then when demand wanes they will offer a better deal, that IS the pattern they use now and I believe it is a smart one.

p.s. easy for me to speculate as I have no interest in purchasing VAC. I'll throw this out there though, VAC will be VERY popular with those looking to rent out their points, i.e. commercial renters. Expect MANY spec. ressies at that resort touting the location next to MK, I can hear those Ebay ads now....). Add to that demand from those looking to stay there via point rentals and we will see many renters occupying that resort.


DAVE

[NYDVC]

I am definitely interested in an add on at KTR. how good are the deals after the first offering? and will there be a resale market which is usually the best deals? I have some SSR points I am thinking of selling to purchase KTR because I think KTR will be a strong seller and keep better "value" in the future. and have a stronger rental option. But what will it cost to sell SRR and buy KTR. It that an expensive propersition?


I certainly have some time to think about it. I could float both KTR and SSR if needed. I have always thought the initial offerings were the best deals. :idontgeti Never studied that, and sounds like I am dead wrong. :hammer:

Whats your opinion?. when will be the best time to buy KTR and Sell SSR.?

All Thoughts would be appreciated. :sunny:

[Daitcher]

I am definitely interested in an add on at KTR. how good are the deals after the first offering? and will there be a resale market which is usually the best deals? I have some SSR points I am thinking of selling to purchase KTR because I think KTR will be a strong seller and keep better "value" in the future. and have a stronger rental option. But what will it cost to sell SRR and buy KTR. It that an expensive propersition?


I certainly have some time to think about it. I could float both KTR and SSR if needed. I have always thought the initial offerings were the best deals. :idontgeti Never studied that, and sounds like I am dead wrong. :hammer:

Whats your opinion?. when will be the best time to buy KTR and Sell SSR.?

All Thoughts would be appreciated. :sunny:



Well, you've got some questions in that post. I'll do my best with them.

Selling SSR, not a bad idea, IMO, as SSR is HUGE, and a lower demand resort, BUT it will cost you. How much? Well, SSR is selling in the low $80's resale right now. Will it go up when SSR sells out???? My guess is yes and thus the reason I'm waiting until I sell. I've manuevered that contract into a positive point situation for the likeleyhood of a sale. I just banked points into 2009 setting it up just in case. Right now SSR resales are being "pushed down" because DVC has had some nice incentives and they are still actively marketing that resort. When it sells out (likely early 2009), the prices should spike some, maybe to mid to high $80's. Take commision off of that and you'll net maybe $76 per point. My estimate of the selling price for VAC is $114 or more. So it will cost you maybe $38 per point to do this, possibly a little less. Is it worth it????? That is up to you. That resort will be HIGH demand and I'm telling you right now rental prices will be high. You could recoup that price diference VERY quickly with a few rentals. It is all about LOCATION and VAC has it.

Resales....... VAC isn't even selling yet. Right now there are maybe 6 contracts for AKV for sale now. None of those saves you any money. It takes a while before resales become a better deal. I wouldn't wait for resales to pinch a few bucks on that UNLESS you want to wait and see what SSR resales do.

Offers: DVC usually does not come to the plate with the best offer upfront. Why would they? You always have the fanatics that just must be first. I don't get that at all. Those folks end up with egg on their face when those buying later get the better deal. Look at these people that bought AKV to be on this boondoggle of an idea, the founders tapestry. They lost in a big way with the deals DVC has now with developers points. These folks spent THOUSANDS more just to be "first" and have their name on some tapestry (does it even exist yet????). I don't believe we'v even seen DVC's best deal on AKV yet. Wait until VAC gets formally announced and sales start. AKV sales will come to a screeching halt and DVC will have to "up the anti".

Hope this helps and good luck.


DAVE

[tomandrobin]

I will agree with Dave about selling SSR. Once the resort sells out and the incentives are gone, prices will bounce up. Lets face it, it you are selling SSR, your price has to compete with Disney. With all the incentives, closing cost, developer points being offered, your SSR resale price will have to be pretty low.

I think the initial buy-in for KT will be $115-$120 per point. I do think that if you want to stay at the resort, you will need the 11 month window. If they sell all 281 units, then there will be availability at the 7 month window. So question really comes down to 1) can you afford to take the lost on your SSR points 2) pay $ the premium for KT 3)pay the point premium for KT 4) Is KT the resort you mostly want to stay.

As far as rentals are concerned, I have not had a problem renting SSR points. Most of the renters just want to go to Disney at a discounted rate. They don't have the same concerns or passions as "us" owners towards the different resorts.

Tom

[Blue&Gold]

Why the idea that KTR points will be over $115?

From the main MouseOwners Site:

DVC Price History:

Pre-Sales $48.00
October 1991 Old Key West Opens
October 1991 $51.00
July 1992 $54.50
November 1992 $56.00
July 1993 $57.50
June 1994 $60.50
November 1994 $61.50
July 1995 $62.75
October 1995 Vero Beach Opens
March 1996 Hilton Head Island Opens
July 1996 Boardwalk Villas Open
January 1999 $65.00
May 2000 $67.00
November 2000 Villas at Wilderness Lodge Open
January 2001 $72.00
June 2001 $75.00
June 2002 $80.00
July 2002 Beach Club Villas Open
December 2002 $84.00
August 2003 $89.00
April 2004 $95.00
May 2004 Saratoga Springs Opens
June 2005 $98.00
May 2006 $101.00
March 2007 $104.00
November 2007 Animal Kingdom Villas Open

So, we're due for the $3-$5 annual increase for 2008, taking base price to $107-$109. Assume sales begin late in 2008 or early 2009, we might hit one of the mid-year increases of $3 or so, to $110 to $112 per point. I agree that we probably won't see many (any) incentives for KTR (the resort is the incentive).

It makes more sense for DVC to ratchet up the points-per-night than to over-aggressively raise base point prices, particularly in a time of a possible economic slowdown.

Dave---Only problem with the "wait 'til the best (AKV) deal comes out" rationale is that some of us need points now!

Need, want, need, want... :scratchch

[carolina_yankee]

As to the speed of selling out, I find it interesting that AKV has only 400+ owners at about what, 18 months into sales? That's less than one owner a day. That resort is going to be selling for a very, very long time.

It seems that KTR is sufficiantly large that once the initial "must haves" are processed, there will still be plenty of points available for others.

Personally, I hope AKV is a poor seller because when I'm financially ready to buy again, I want to buy there! (Better incentives, hopefully. Although, at the end of the day, we're DINKS and booking AKV at 7 mos should be easy, perhaps a cheaper resale . . .)

Dirk

[NYDVC]

Well, you've got some questions in that post. I'll do my best with them.

Selling SSR, not a bad idea, IMO, as SSR is HUGE, and a lower demand resort, BUT it will cost you. How much? Well, SSR is selling in the low $80's resale right now. Will it go up when SSR sells out???? My guess is yes and thus the reason I'm waiting until I sell. I've manuevered that contract into a positive point situation for the likeleyhood of a sale. I just banked points into 2009 setting it up just in case. Right now SSR resales are being "pushed down" because DVC has had some nice incentives and they are still actively marketing that resort. When it sells out (likely early 2009), the prices should spike some, maybe to mid to high $80's. Take commision off of that and you'll net maybe $76 per point. My estimate of the selling price for VAC is $114 or more. So it will cost you maybe $38 per point to do this, possibly a little less. Is it worth it????? That is up to you. That resort will be HIGH demand and I'm telling you right now rental prices will be high. You could recoup that price diference VERY quickly with a few rentals. It is all about LOCATION and VAC has it.




DAVE

WOW, on a 200 point contract at 38 pp your talking $7800 dollars to switch from SSR to KTR. Have to admit, thats a lot ot swallow. If I rented the 200 points, it would take 4 to 5 years (assuming 10 -12 PP rentals) to make that up after you consider maintenance cost. Is that what your thinking of as "very quickly"? Just wondering if I understood you right? It might be worth it to buy KTR and just rent the SSR points to pay for the KTR points? .

[kdzgon]

Guarantee is a strong word but I believe it won't be the best offer. It wasn't for AKV so why would it be for VAC? ...
DAVE

You might be right in that deeper incentives may well kick in. I think the economy will help determine if and when they are offered.

If it doesn't happen [deeper discounts/incentives], IMO it will be because of 2 reasons: smaller property and greater interest. VAC will be more similar to VWL or to a lesser extent, BC, yet I believe you didn't see the same promotions with those resorts. VWL is the closest DVC to MK, and is a small resort. It is highly themed, though perhaps too much for some. BC is also small, has a huge draw with Stormalong Bay, and is also close to a theme park. "Themeing" there is not quite as "unique" (read "more limited - though quite emphatic - appeal") as VWL, IMO. BW while also close to Epcot, is much larger than the planned VAC.

[Daitcher]

WOW, on a 200 point contract at 38 pp your talking $7800 dollars to switch from SSR to KTR. Have to admit, thats a lot ot swallow. If I rented the 200 points, it would take 4 to 5 years (assuming 10 -12 PP rentals) to make that up after you consider maintenance cost. Is that what your thinking of as "very quickly"? Just wondering if I understood you right? It might be worth it to buy KTR and just rent the SSR points to pay for the KTR points? .



I gave you a worst case scenario. If you get any incentive, which DVC always has something, then your true cost will lower than I quoted. IF they charge $114 as I predicted then they will likely have the standard $8 off or so to bring it to $106 net. That knocks off $1600 of the $7800. If they offer developers points then those could be rented to offset the price difference.

Also $10 -$12 for rentals there will be low, IMO. I was getting close to $17 per point several years ago at OKW, BCV and SSR. Those were pre-booked spec. weeks but either way $14 per point should be the goal for that prime location. Several years of renting some of the points and it is a break even and going forward you'll have a resort in a prime loaction with the longest end date. Those factors will mean nice resale values for years to come if you use like I do. I use for a period of time and sell.

Good luck.


DAVE

[Daitcher]

WOW, on a 200 point contract at 38 pp your talking $7800 dollars to switch from SSR to KTR. Have to admit, thats a lot ot swallow. If I rented the 200 points, it would take 4 to 5 years (assuming 10 -12 PP rentals) to make that up after you consider maintenance cost. Is that what your thinking of as "very quickly"? Just wondering if I understood you right? It might be worth it to buy KTR and just rent the SSR points to pay for the KTR points? .



One thing you have here that I don't agree with. You can't include maintainance costs in that scenario. If anything you need to knock money off as VAC will have lower dues intially than SSR. You own SSR now and you pay dues there regardless. Buying VAC you still pay dues, less intiallly in fact. Just call it a wash to kep it simple.

So my numbers would look like this $6200 more approx. to buy VAC. Renting at $14 per point nets $2800. $2800 x 2 years = $5600. So in just over two years you are even. You now have a resort with a longer end date with much greater appeal due to location AND more importantly a greater need for the 11 month booking advantage. Developers points if ofered make it even sweeter.

Hope this helps.


DAVE

[broganmc]

Guarantee is a strong word but I believe it won't be the best offer. It wasn't for AKV so why would it be for VAC?

I haven't been around as long in the DVC community, but I thought with price inflation it was the initial offering that was the best. I know I got a better deal at SSR when I purchased in May '06 then my later add-ons, even with the recent $10 off + 100 developer points.

Also, I'm inclined to think the small size of the resort coupled with its high profile location means it will sell better than previous DVCs, even BCV and BWV. After all, a lot of casual WDW visitors don't even realize there is a Boardwalk but everyone sees the Contemporary.

That said, I'm not in a rush to make KTR my sole home resort. For me, it is merely a 3 day add-on. I just want enough points to finance that once a year. Probably around 75 tops.

My reasoning is that, although the style is not my end-all-be-all I really like the location. And with the size of the resort and my expectation of demand from all those newbies, I expect I'll have a better chance of winning the lottery than getting a low-cost fully accessible HA studio anytime of the year except the dead of winter or hurricane season.

My ultimate goal is to make KTR my last add-on. If I get to 500 pts, I'll have more than enough to provide for me, my dad and my siblings.

BWV woulda been my last add-on (really like the idea of kicking off F&W there), but the contract expiration has soured me on that. Now if they extend it to the 2050's, I could reconsider.

[Daitcher]

I haven't been around as long in the DVC community, but I thought with price inflation it was the initial offering that was the best. I know I got a better deal at SSR when I purchased in May '06 then my later add-ons, even with the recent $10 off + 100 developer points. .



That really hasn't beeen the case of late. I bought an add on at SSR in 2003. The price was $84 I believe. Folks were bettering that price 2-3 years later with the friends and family discounts and recently if you use the developer options correctly by renting those and offsetting the cost the price ended up being around that or lower as well.

AKV, folks buying intially got soaked. The deals now with developer points are FAR better than what they offered upfront. Those folks wanting to get on the Tapestry paid for it. All because they just had to ahve those points then and there or be first. Wait until we see the next round of incentives at AKV after they announce VAC.

VAC, it is a guess, lets be clear. Why would DVC come out of the gate with their best offer? Let the "have to have it now" folks buy in at a high price and when sales wane a little offer some sort of new incentive. Sales there COULD be so brisk that they don't need to discount further, time will tell. I pay cash for points so waiting has worked for me in the past to some degree. Most times I ended up with the same price or better AND my money earned interest for another year or two. Why rush? Lets take a 200 point add on at $110 per point. That is $22,000. The portion of my portfolio that I use for income averages 7% return guaranteed. 7% in one year is $1540, if I wait two years that bumps up to $3080. So at the end of year one, those 200 points would have to go up MORE than $7.70 per point for me to lose. Over two years obviously the price would need to spike more than $15.40 for me to lose. This is why you should wait, we should all wait. IF we all waited they would be forced into lowering the price. For those financing this, the interest they pay over those two years is staggering. I would say wait at least a while and follow the offfers closely.


DAVE

[tomandrobin]

That really hasn't beeen the case of late. I bought an add on at SSR in 2003. The price was $84 I believe. Folks were bettering that price 2-3 years later with the friends and family discounts and recently if you use the developer options correctly by renting those and offsetting the cost the price ended up being around that or lower as well.

AKV, folks buying intially got soaked. The deals now with developer points are FAR better than what they offered upfront. Those folks wanting to get on the Tapestry paid for it. All because they just had to ahve those points then and there or be first. Wait until we see the next round of incentives at AKV after they announce VAC.

DAVE

Our recent add-on was the best deal we had received to date. We rented the dev points and the 2007 points and applied that to our purcgase price. We got $12 per point, so subtract $24 off the purchase price of $94.

As far as AKV, "us" who bought in Feb did get soaked. Still burns me how that went down. If we had waited until the summer, we could have gotten the double developer points. Members who are buying now, are they getting last years points too? If yes, then I got double soaked and dupped!

I said we were going to buy KT, but I am not going to be first in line this time. Fool me once................

[Daitcher]

Our recent add-on was the best deal we had received to date. We rented the dev points and the 2007 points and applied that to our purcgase price. We got $12 per point, so subtract $24 off the purchase price of $94.

As far as AKV, "us" who bought in Feb did get soaked. Still burns me how that went down. If we had waited until the summer, we could have gotten the double developer points. Members who are buying now, are they getting last years points too? If yes, then I got double soaked and dupped!

I said we were going to buy KT, but I am not going to be first in line this time. Fool me once................


Thank you for sharing your experiences. I hope others will take a lesson from this.



DAVE

[Blue&Gold]

Thank you for sharing your experiences. I hope others will take a lesson from this.

DAVE

But they probably won't!

[NYDVC]

But they probably won't!

I for one will. Waiting will have a financial advantage. thanks to all for the information.

[Daitcher]

But they probably won't!


Unfortunately you are correct.

As we speak calls are being placed to guides about VAC (KT).

Why don't you folks just tell Disney you'll pay whatever the heck they want and be done with it.:rolleyes: Oh yeah, you have, those calls speak loud and clear.


DAVE

[broganmc]

VAC, it is a guess, lets be clear. Why would DVC come out of the gate with their best offer? Let the "have to have it now" folks buy in at a high price and when sales wane a little offer some sort of new incentive. Sales there COULD be so brisk that they don't need to discount further, time will tell. I pay cash for points so waiting has worked for me in the past to some degree. Most times I ended up with the same price or better AND my money earned interest for another year or two. Why rush? Lets take a 200 point add on at $110 per point. That is $22,000. The portion of my portfolio that I use for income averages 7% return guaranteed. 7% in one year is $1540, if I wait two years that bumps up to $3080. So at the end of year one, those 200 points would have to go up MORE than $7.70 per point for me to lose. Over two years obviously the price would need to spike more than $15.40 for me to lose. This is why you should wait, we should all wait. IF we all waited they would be forced into lowering the price. For those financing this, the interest they pay over those two years is staggering. I would say wait at least a while and follow the offfers closely.

I see. Good points to keep in mind.

For us, our add-ons to date have been a matter of necessity just so we can do all we want without having to borrow, beg or steal just for our trips. I haven't bothered dipping into the rental market because it has a level of complexity and risk I'm not comfortable taking on yet. And I'm having too much using everything we have now.

KTR is strictly a luxury add-on. It'll give us a chance to stay elsewhere a few days a year without sweating wait lists and 7 mos. reservations. My only concern with that property is how fast it would sell out.

Everyone seems to expect unusually strong demand due to the location. (Taking a page from your book, location here is arguably the best in WDW.) And if Disney does encounter that, then it seems likely they wouldn't offer incentives and would probably do another price increase pretty soon after initial sales begin.

[kdzgon]

That really hasn't beeen the case of late. I bought an add on at SSR in 2003. The price was $84 I believe. Folks were bettering that price 2-3 years later with the friends and family discounts and recently if you use the developer options correctly by renting those and offsetting the cost the price ended up being around that or lower as well.

AKV, folks buying intially got soaked. The deals now with developer points are FAR better than what they offered upfront. Those folks wanting to get on the Tapestry paid for it. All because they just had to ahve those points then and there or be first. Wait until we see the next round of incentives at AKV after they announce VAC.

...

DAVE

One thing I will point out is these "much better" offers really only apply to larger add-ons, 160 - 225 pt minimums. If you are adding on in smaller increments, the "better" offers don't apply.

[Daitcher]

One thing I will point out is these "much better" offers really only apply to larger add-ons, 160 - 225 pt minimums. If you are adding on in smaller increments, the "better" offers don't apply.



True and that is the rub. The best "deals" often require the minimum 160 point add on.



DAVE

[bigbahamadada]

True and that is the rub. The best "deals" often require the minimum 160 point add on.



DAVE

True. But, I should point out that you can aggregate your way to those minimum numbers. We did an add-on at AKV when the double developer point promotion was running. We need to purchase 100 points to get the promotion. I did, but I had them write the contracts as four 25-point contracts. If I were so inclined, I could have immediately sold one of those off and reaped the dd points, while only purchasing 75 points.

To get to the promotional threshold, whatever it may be, you could break your contracts up into smaller pieces, and then sell what you really didn't want. On many of these deals, I think the value of the incentive would more than offset the transaction costs of buying and then reselling an unwanted portion.

[carolina_yankee]

So, moving away a little bit from the purchase incentives, I have a question.

Would it be likely that DVC would require a higher initial buy-in at CRV if the points required for a stay were signficantly higher? Say, keep the price per point the same, but require 200 or 220 points for KTR and 160 points for SSR and AKV? I'm thinking DVC wants people to buy roughly a week's equivalent of points, probably using the 1 BR as the norm.

Also, could they have a high minimum for add-on at KTR than at other resorts?

I'm not saying they will - just wondering if this could be a strategy.

Dirk

[Blue&Gold]

So, moving away a little bit from the purchase incentives, I have a question.

Would it be likely that DVC would require a higher initial buy-in at CRV if the points required for a stay were signficantly higher? Say, keep the price per point the same, but require 200 or 220 points for KTR and 160 points for SSR and AKV? I'm thinking DVC wants people to buy roughly a week's equivalent of points, probably using the 1 BR as the norm.

Also, could they have a high minimum for add-on at KTR than at other resorts?

I'm not saying they will - just wondering if this could be a strategy.

Dirk

Not sure, Dirk. Beginning to worry that DVD is going to get really greedy with this one, rather than just the simple "greed as a method of making shareholders happy" kind of greed that keeps our economy moving. So, in that context, yes I think it is possible.

[Daitcher]

So, moving away a little bit from the purchase incentives, I have a question.

Would it be likely that DVC would require a higher initial buy-in at CRV if the points required for a stay were signficantly higher? Say, keep the price per point the same, but require 200 or 220 points for KTR and 160 points for SSR and AKV? I'm thinking DVC wants people to buy roughly a week's equivalent of points, probably using the 1 BR as the norm.

Also, could they have a high minimum for add-on at KTR than at other resorts?

I'm not saying they will - just wondering if this could be a strategy.

Dirk



Good question.

I'm not sure but my best guess is that we will see a price increase but not necessarily and increase in the minimum buy in requirement. I'm also not so sure that the points required to stay will be any higher than say BWV BW view.

I don't think we'll see any significant differences if any in the required points per week. What kind of message would that send? OK folks, you guys own the premier property and the rest of you people own the second teir of DVC. That wouldn't sit well so I think they need to keep it the same or very close.

Also, the minimum buy in is more about having enough points to exchange and enough points to offer that owner the perks. I can't see DVC driving more people to resale by raisng the minimum buy in.

I'm still guessing $115 per point or so minus any incentives. I'd be surprised with a raise elsewhere.


DAVE

[mathmouse]

Hmm...OK, so yet another DVC factoid I don't know yet: if I (a current OKW owner) were to add on at SS or AKV, would I have to buy 160 points or could I just buy a smaller contract? Never really thought about having to buy a huge contract to get in at KTV.

[carolina_yankee]

Hmm...OK, so yet another DVC factoid I don't know yet: if I (a current OKW owner) were to add on at SS or AKV, would I have to buy 160 points or could I just buy a smaller contract? Never really thought about having to buy a huge contract to get in at KTV.

Currently, I think 25 points is the minimum add-on anywhere. It doesn't vary by resort.

However, I was wondering if Disney might try to show preference for larger contracts at KTR by limiting the the purchase size there.

Dirk

[RweTHEREyet]

geez, don't go giving them any ideas--not that that hasn't probably already been discussed, but just in case...

[carolina_yankee]

Well, Mouseplanet thinks they'll be the same price as all other resorts, and that the point value won't be too out of line. That's a good sign.

Dirk

[Daitcher]

Well, Mouseplanet thinks they'll be the same price as all other resorts, and that the point value won't be too out of line. That's a good sign.

Dirk



Wouldn't surpirse me at all BUT I would expect the incentives to be less initially, or should I say the incentives at AKV will be higher, making the net for VAC/KT higher.


DAVE

[Bacala]

With respect to the intial offers never being the best Disney offers, I agree that has been the case, but I am not sure if that will also be the case with KTR.

Here is my reasoning, and someone let me know if I am crazy.

The other DVCs needed to offer greater incentives because the guides and Disney had to market those resorts as people did not know they necessarily existed. So after they got the initial current owners to buy their add-ons, now it was time to get the friends and families and others.

But with KTR, and this is just my opinion, I think the resort will sell itself, and not because it will be necessarily all that much better, but because there is not a person going into MK that will not go by it and say, what is that big thing. If you are going to MK by monorail, you go right through the Cont. and past it. (They may even add a promo to the pre-recorded voice) If you are taking the boat, you will be able to see it, and my recollection is that if you are arriving by bus from another resort, the access road goes right by it as well.

Even BWV and BCV, which I consider the other "easy park access DVCs" are not in your face when you get into the park and I bet many visitors to Epcot do not even know they are there, but there will be no hiding KTR.

Anyway, this is longer than I intended, but I am just curious if anyone else thinks this makes sense or is my logic flawed?

[Steamboat Bill]

I have bought pre-construction DVC several times and have even benefited from later deals like $15 off + full years points (for 1/12 dues) at SSR, etc. Generally speaking, the earlier I bought, the better price I was offered.

I did not buy AKV at first as I was not that interested in that location. I would be bummed if I bought pre-construction and then 6 months later DVC was offering a better deal (developer points + discount, etc). This was a very fast discount and may be due to the fact that this will be a huge resort.

I personally think GCV will sell-out very fast (9-12 months) that there will be no time for any future discounts and they will have to add another Disneyland DVC location. Does anyone know when these will be offered for sale?

I also think KTV will have huge demand that will only offer discounts well after they start selling (12-18 months later) or unless the economy gets really bad.

I have no idea what they are going to do with Hawaii.

[carolina_yankee]

another thing that Mouseplanet mentioned I'm not so sure about. They say don't expect sales to start at KTR until AKV is nearly sold out so they won't have to put AKV in the bargain basement.

However, according to the filings, AKV has only 400+ owners. Even the smaller resorts have more than 10,000. If phase 1 of KTR is supposed to be available in Fall 2009, I don't see AKV being anywhere close to selling out. Heck, even SSR is still chugging along on sales.

That actually might be a reason to make initial buy-in higher at KTS (don't discount AKV, but make KTR available at a premium). Either that, or Disney isn't worried about the competition. Quite frankly, those who want to stay at AKV are not necessarily those who want to stay at KTR and vice versa. Personally, I'm more of an AKV kind of person though I hope to experience KTR some time.

Dirk

[Blue&Gold]

But with KTR, and this is just my opinion, I think the resort will sell itself, and not because it will be necessarily all that much better, but because there is not a person going into MK that will not go by it and say, what is that big thing. If you are going to MK by monorail, you go right through the Cont. and past it. (They may even add a promo to the pre-recorded voice) If you are taking the boat, you will be able to see it, and my recollection is that if you are arriving by bus from another resort, the access road goes right by it as well.

Even BWV and BCV, which I consider the other "easy park access DVCs" are not in your face when you get into the park and I bet many visitors to Epcot do not even know they are there, but there will be no hiding KTR.

Anyway, this is longer than I intended, but I am just curious if anyone else thinks this makes sense or is my logic flawed?

This is my belief... Disney's "Best Kept Secret" is now right in the face of the 30,000-40,000 folks who go through the MK turnstyles every day. Why buy advertising bigger than a sign?

[Carol]

......... I'll throw this out there though, VAC will be VERY popular with those looking to rent out their points, i.e. commercial renters. Expect MANY spec. ressies at that resort touting the location next to MK, I can hear those Ebay ads now....). Add to that demand from those looking to stay there via point rentals and we will see many renters occupying that resort.


DAVEI've been wondering about renting at KTR, too.

Given all the recent efforts of DVC to discourage renting, I wonder if there will be language added to the contract that effectively eliminates members' ability to rent at KTR. I've been told that CMs who buy DVC (with their discount) have to sign something that says they agree not to rent, so there is some precedent for this.

If you know up front at purchase, you can certainly choose not to buy KTR if no renting is a deal breaker, so I think Disney could legally do it. I don't think it would impact sales very much, if at all. Most don't buy with the thought of renting.

Disney could also decide not to allow owners of other DVC resorts to reserve KTR with non-KTR points unless they agreed not to rent.

Just some things I've been wondering about - anyone else thinking this way?

[Daitcher]

With respect to the intial offers never being the best Disney offers, I agree that has been the case, but I am not sure if that will also be the case with KTR.

Here is my reasoning, and someone let me know if I am crazy.

The other DVCs needed to offer greater incentives because the guides and Disney had to market those resorts as people did not know they necessarily existed. So after they got the initial current owners to buy their add-ons, now it was time to get the friends and families and others.

But with KTR, and this is just my opinion, I think the resort will sell itself, and not because it will be necessarily all that much better, but because there is not a person going into MK that will not go by it and say, what is that big thing. If you are going to MK by monorail, you go right through the Cont. and past it. (They may even add a promo to the pre-recorded voice) If you are taking the boat, you will be able to see it, and my recollection is that if you are arriving by bus from another resort, the access road goes right by it as well.

Even BWV and BCV, which I consider the other "easy park access DVCs" are not in your face when you get into the park and I bet many visitors to Epcot do not even know they are there, but there will be no hiding KTR.

Anyway, this is longer than I intended, but I am just curious if anyone else thinks this makes sense or is my logic flawed?



You aren't crazy at all and this a distinct possibility.

As I tried to show in my one post in this thread, even if the intial offer is the best and you passed on it for a year, the interest earned or if you finance the interest saved over that one year should be more than enough to offset the price increase. I would gamble for the better incentive, i.e. wait a while to see what happens after the smoke clears.


DAVE

[Daitcher]

I've been wondering about renting at KTR, too.

Given all the recent efforts of DVC to discourage renting, I wonder if there will be language added to the contract that effectively eliminates members' ability to rent at KTR. I've been told that CMs who buy DVC (with their discount) have to sign something that says they agree not to rent, so there is some precedent for this.

If you know up front at purchase, you can certainly choose not to buy KTR if no renting is a deal breaker, so I think Disney could legally do it. I don't think it would impact sales very much, if at all. Most don't buy with the thought of renting.

Disney could also decide not to allow owners of other DVC resorts to reserve KTR with non-KTR points unless they agreed not to rent.

Just some things I've been wondering about - anyone else thinking this way?



There is no such language. If you skim the documents provided by Dirk you'll see that renting is still clearly allowed and one interesting thing to note is the 20 rental limit over 12 months is not there. Perhaps a little back pedaling by DVC??

Renting is and always will be allowed.

As for Disney doing it legally; they cannot. As long as DVC itself rents then so can the membership.

Limiting ressies with an agreemnet not to rent.... again illegal and would never be binding in a court of law. Unless they remove VAC from DVC and make it a seperate entitity (which they are not) then it will be "business" as usual. Well, maybe not as usual, at $15 per point.:yes:

DAVE

[Bacala]

As I tried to show in my one post in this thread, even if the intial offer is the best and you passed on it for a year, the interest earned or if you finance the interest saved over that one year should be more than enough to offset the price increase. I would gamble for the better incentive, i.e. wait a while to see what happens after the smoke clears.


DAVE

I agree, if you can stand to wait. I don't think it will sell out so fast that you need to be first in line. My thought is to hedge my bets. I plan to buy at the start, but not all the points I want, and then add on if there is a good incentive. If no good incentive comes, nothing lost but one year of fees. This balances my got to have it with my desire to not get hosed.

[glypnirsgirl]

Although it would never have occurred to me to do so without the information I learned here, :goodvibes one of the reasons that we bought our most recent contract at SSR was the ability to rent the points. With the incentives that they were offering, it just seemed silly to NOT buy. We bought 200 points the end of November for December UY. Banked our 06 points, got our 07 points on 12/01/07 and we received 270 developer points. We paid out $2080 in down payments. Our monthly payment is about $350. So our total outlay for this year is $6,280 plus maintenance of $1000 = $7280. We will be receiving $6700 in rent. Next year we will be using all of our points personally again for MEGA family vacations at WDW! The combination of the developer points (incentives) and the ability to rent made this a possibility for us. Otherwise we would have had to pass until this year (when we originally intended to buy - the incentives did not make our decision, just changed the timing of it).

Individual financial situations will be so much in turmoil this year. There is a real loss of personal income occurring in the middle class. Incomes have not kept pace with inflation for middle and low income earners. It is starting to hit the higher mid managers also. Only the big dogs seem to be making headway against inflation.

I personally think that the economic turmoil is going to be the biggest problem that KTR faces. Certainly the location is its biggest asset. I totally agree that very little marketing other than an addition to the voice recorder and a big sign out front will be necessary - for those people that are certain enough of their economic futures to take the plunge. I think that the people certain of their economic futures is a shrinking pool.

Elaine

[Blue&Gold]

Disney thinks beyond the current economic cycle...

[glypnirsgirl]

I agree that Disney thinks beyond the current economic cycle or they would not be bringing so many units on line over the next three years. I simply believe that the economic cycle will affect the sales figures and may possibly result in a better incentives after the initial offering.

I bought my original points in 1994. The only incentive that I received was the length of stay tickets for the first 7 years. It has turned out that the incentives were even greater because my initial purchase price was less than $65 per point. I have used my points, used the passes, and could sell my DVC membership for as much as I bought it for. Turns out that was really good incentive - but who knew?

Elaine

[Biff215]

With respect to the intial offers never being the best Disney offers, I agree that has been the case, but I am not sure if that will also be the case with KTR.

Here is my reasoning, and someone let me know if I am crazy.

The other DVCs needed to offer greater incentives because the guides and Disney had to market those resorts as people did not know they necessarily existed. So after they got the initial current owners to buy their add-ons, now it was time to get the friends and families and others.

But with KTR, and this is just my opinion, I think the resort will sell itself, and not because it will be necessarily all that much better, but because there is not a person going into MK that will not go by it and say, what is that big thing. If you are going to MK by monorail, you go right through the Cont. and past it. (They may even add a promo to the pre-recorded voice) If you are taking the boat, you will be able to see it, and my recollection is that if you are arriving by bus from another resort, the access road goes right by it as well.

Even BWV and BCV, which I consider the other "easy park access DVCs" are not in your face when you get into the park and I bet many visitors to Epcot do not even know they are there, but there will be no hiding KTR.

Anyway, this is longer than I intended, but I am just curious if anyone else thinks this makes sense or is my logic flawed?

I do agree that KTR makes a major statement given its size, and that the other DVC resorts do typically go unnoticed. However, given the look of the tower, I'm not sure that the typical tourist will realize that it is anything more than an additional hotel, especially since it is sitting right next to the original tower.

Monorail spiels, signs, etc. will probably do more to stir up interest, and I don't think there is a question that KTR will sell faster than the other resorts. I guess the biggest advantage will come for the Tomorrowland DVC kiosk, where they will literally be able to point to what they're selling. I just don't see visibility making a huge difference, but it will be interesting to see what happens!

[dsruton]

OK, back to the sales price. I can not figure out how they came up with the $ 17712 figure in the contract. That figure would make more sense per point wise, but how. Any Ideas???

[Bacala]

... given the look of the tower, I'm not sure that the typical tourist will realize that it is anything more than an additional hotel, especially since it is sitting right next to the original tower...

That may be true, but I have inside information that tells me that this "C" shaped tower is the first of three towers, two more to be put up right next to it, one in the shape of a "D" and one in the shapre of a "V". So from the air, the hotels will spell "DVC". This is to market to all the people flying in and out of Orlando, as well as that untapped market of people in the international space station!

[Daitcher]

That may be true, but I have inside information that tells me that this "C" shaped tower is the first of three towers, two more to be put up right next to it, one in the shape of a "D" and one in the shapre of a "V". So from the air, the hotels will spell "DVC". This is to market to all the people flying in and out of Orlando, as well as that untapped market of people in the international space station!



LOL.:hahahaha:



DAVE

[Steamboat Bill]

That may be true, but I have inside information that tells me that this "C" shaped tower is the first of three towers, two more to be put up right next to it, one in the shape of a "D" and one in the shapre of a "V". So from the air, the hotels will spell "DVC". This is to market to all the people flying in and out of Orlando, as well as that untapped market of people in the international space station!

Don't forget about Google Earth....viral marketing.

[mushu]

Boy do I hope this is true. If so it will be the fastest DVC to sell out.

[Biff215]

That may be true, but I have inside information that tells me that this "C" shaped tower is the first of three towers, two more to be put up right next to it, one in the shape of a "D" and one in the shapre of a "V". So from the air, the hotels will spell "DVC". This is to market to all the people flying in and out of Orlando, as well as that untapped market of people in the international space station!

Too funny! Will it still be "Disney's Best Kept Secret"??? :scratchch

[greenban]

Wow!

Don't log in for a day (or so.....) and look at all the excitement in the DVC.

Great Job Dirk, Many Thanks!

-Tony

[Daitcher]

Wow!

Don't log in for a day (or so.....) and look at all the excitement in the DVC.

Great Job Dirk, Many Thanks!

-Tony


Welcome back, Tony. Hope all is going well with the new offices.

You've been missed here for sure.


DAVE

[Lisa]

Glad to see you back Greenban!!! :cheers2:


Thought you might have been..... er.... banned.

[HauntedPirate]

First post.... I can't believe I read the whole thread! :)

I certainly want to buy into KTR, but I don't think there will be any incentives to buy early. I also hope they don't implement some large minimums on add-ons. :mad:

[tomandrobin]

First post.... I can't believe I read the whole thread! :)

I certainly want to buy into KTR, but I don't think there will be any incentives to buy early. I also hope they don't implement some large minimums on add-ons. :mad:

Welcome to Mouse Owners!!

[jiggerj]

Wow!

Don't log in for a day (or so.....) and look at all the excitement in the DVC.

Great Job Dirk, Many Thanks!

-Tony

Good to see the frog alive and hopping! :D

[Palmtreefan]

Look's great! :yes: I hope there's not too long a waiting list to stay there...

[Leftcoaster]

I've wondered that, too. According to the Common Facilities Agreement, it looks like DVD grants to Worldco (Walt Disney World) the right to use the condominium pool for Worldco guests staying at the CR. Likewise, Worldco grants DVD rights for its guests at KTR to use the CR pools and facilities for ithe duration of their say. All of this is subject to any other rules or regulations that may be put in place. It doesn't say anything about other resorts.

In other words, guests in either resort (CR or KTR) can use the pool, tennis courts, beaches of the other resort.



Dirk


Can we petition Disney to add in special wording that would say that Contemporary Resort guests could use the pool except for one particular parking lot watching fanboy?

Bavaria, back me up here. ;)

[jerlev]

OK, back to the sales price. I can not figure out how they came up with the $ 17712 figure in the contract. That figure would make more sense per point wise, but how. Any Ideas???

One thing to keep in mind is that I did not think there will be much difference in the price between VCR/KTV (whatever they call it) and other selling resorts. Only difference should be incentives. Otherwise, there is nothing stopping people from buying into say SSR or AKV and reserving at VCR. Also, if you pay more per point and trade to stay at other DVC resorts, you would be losing money...