Wheelchair Fire Drills

[handa]

Has anybody else seen guests switch places in a wheelchair or ECV? I caught it once (two kids, both ran around like they washed down their ritalin with red bull after smoking a cigarette) and was told that there was nothing that CMs could do to confront the family.

Fortunately, as accessibilty opportunities and policies have changed, fewer people are able to use these devices as front of line passes. Still, having had to deal with family with wheelchairs and walkers while on vacation, it frustrates me to see people abusing what is a medical necessity for others.

I'm sure that this one is more mundane and know that there are far better stories on stupidguesttricks.com, but this is one of my favorites because I saw it blatantly without any hiding of the fact that the family was abusing accessibility priveleges.

Chris

[Smitty]

I am a long-time lurker, first-time posting...

On our first DVC trip 4 years ago we had my parents with us, including my father who was in a wheelchair. We were pleasantly surprised by how wonderful all the cast members were with him and would never have dreamed of taking advantage of his illness to get through lines quicker.

Not the case for a family we saw waiting in line for Splash Mountain. There were 2children (6 and 8-ish) and 3 adults, Mom, Dad and maybe an aunt. In the beginning of the line the children were climbing on fences and even climbing trees and causing quite a ruckus as the father pushed an empty wheelchair through the line. As the family approached the handicap entrance to the ride the boy got in the wheelchair and the family was put to the front of the line. As we waited patiently (my father wasn't resting at our villa so we were in the regular line) we were able to see the family exit from the ride. As if what they had done wasn't enough, the boy was "pulled off" the ride by his older sister and he acted as though he was unable to walk at all! The adults were all in on the act too and lifted him to the chair so they could exit. When we saw them later in the day, the girl was the disabled child!

We spoke with the cast member that let them through the handicapped line and told him that he had been "had". He was quite apologetic, but explained that there was nothing he could have done differently. We were appalled at what this family came up with such a plan. :jawdroppi

Jacki

[nono]

Smitty and Handa,

Be glad you aren't these families' insurance agent. :zipit:

[tomandrobin]

On our trip over the New Years weekend, my wife had to use a wheelchair. She had fractured her heal and wears a "boot" to protect the foot. With the boot on, she can walk in short distances, maybe 100 feet. We got all types of comments and dirty looks from other guests anytime she would leave the wheelchair. Towards the end of our trip it almost was like a running joke.

Now we did see abuse of the wheelchairs by a few parents, but it wasn't a huge thing. But one instance stood out on our last trip. One family had rented a wheelchair at the entrance and made one of thier kids get in it. That poor kid was so upset that he was being made to ride the wheelchair. He was causing a scene with tthe parents, making them look like jerks for putting him in the chair.

[bmalonef45]

Two summers ago we were headed over towards EE in AK and we were walking next to a family with a young teen in a wheelchair with a cast on her leg. Her loving father was telling her that even though she obviously didn't want to go on the ride she had to go so they could get on faster. I was somewhat amazed by his forcefulness, she was almost in tears.

[carolina_yankee]

They may have gotten a rude surprise - I think the EE queue is one of the wheelchair friendly queues so CMs don't give them 'head-of-the-line" privileges.

We were with a friend in Epcot last September who was in an ECV due to pending foot surgery the next day. She could walk, but not theme-park walk. She hated being in the ECV and often gave way to others as she would when walking, but guests were generally very accommodating. Anyway - when we got to Norway and Mexico, we wondered if the CM would bring us in through a quicker way, but both queues were wheelchair friendly. Norway was tight, but doable. Mexico, very easy, but also no wait anyway.

Anyway - Dad may have been foiled, and daughter saved from her worst nightmare (or second worst if Dad is that way all the time).

Dirk

[tomandrobin]

There are two different "passes" for people with special needs

[carolina_yankee]

I know one is based on the ability of people to wait in line; which, I guess, means that if you can physically wait and the queue can handle the wheelchair, then you don't get head of line privileges. Is there another as well?

Dirk

[Stimpy]

I know one is based on the ability of people to wait in line; which, I guess, means that if you can physically wait and the queue can handle the wheelchair, then you don't get head of line privileges. Is there another as well?

Dirk

Yes, there is another one for people unable to stand in lines for too long. I think it's used for disabilities like Autism etc. It's pretty hard to get though for good reason.

I really like that it is now harder for people to get front of the line privileges. We used to see so many people abusing it. It was meant for the people that really need it.

[paulrae]

As someone who has had to use a Guest Assistance Card - 2007...People like this really really **** me off (please insert words needed to make a good British swear word).

Just before I get off my Soap box...I would like to mention the other side of this...People who feel they have to comment (never to my face) I do not look like I need a G.A.C (unsure how to put that without it sounding offense)- I cannot queue or stand for long periods of time - can walk a way and run a little but not theme park distances. I have crohns and sometimes need to make a "quick Escape"

We can all be quick to judge but when you see people that clearly do not need the extra help, it makes it harder for the likes of me to get the help I do need.

:sosad:

Hope this little rant doesn't come across as rude not meant to be

[handa]

Agreed 100%! I have NO PROBLEM with anybody who has a legitimate reason/condition for not waiting in line, whether it is visually apparant or not. There are people with physical/mental/behavioral conditions that no amount of line widening or interactive displays will help, and why should they not see Johnny Depp, Stitch, or Donald?

However, with every allowance, a loophole is created for people to abuse this. I work with parents who play the "ADHD or Autism Card" at every opportunity, have acquaintences who travel with "therapeutic pets" that have no verifying paperwork or therapeutic function, and have seen people use their diagnosis as an addict as a "get out of work free" pass.

Families pushing around children in wheelchairs who run around the room when the chair is parked or make them switch places is abuse, as typically is the voice of a parent who loudly demands something in a public forum by disclosing something that they would sue their health care workers for whispering to a co-worker under HIPPA law.

It makes the rest of the general population less trusting and understanding of people who have real needs, and this saddens me more than anything else about the subject. This is why I tried to report the abuse, and probably why I was told that Disney could do nothing to prevent it at that time. Since then, the logistics and rules have changed and continue to change, and those who are on the true needs side of things with ADA-related issues tell me that they are OK with anything that evens the playing field and lets them have access to the attractions even though it means that they have to get a fastpass or wait in line just like everybody else.

Chris

[paulrae]

Breaks my heart to see....Believe me if I could stand to queue I would, I have 2 kids that I want to be proud of me and set a good example for.

Can only imagine the values the "other types" set themselves.

[Stimpy]

As someone who has had to use a Guest Assistance Card - 2007...People like this really really **** me off (please insert words needed to make a good British swear word).

Just before I get off my Soap box...I would like to mention the other side of this...People who feel they have to comment (never to my face) I do not look like I need a G.A.C (unsure how to put that without it sounding offense)- I cannot queue or stand for long periods of time - can walk a way and run a little but not theme park distances. I have crohns and sometimes need to make a "quick Escape"

We can all be quick to judge but when you see people that clearly do not need the extra help, it makes it harder for the likes of me to get the help I do need.

:sosad:

Hope this little rant doesn't come across as rude not meant to be

Not rude at all! I agree with you also. I think you stated it much more clearer than I could. I didn't mean to imply that people who do not "look" disabled are abusing the GAC. I apologize if that was the way it sounded.

I was referring more to the people like mentioned who switch places & take turns in the wheelchair, the extended families that wheel poor great great auntie to Space Mtn so she could wait at the exit while 12 of her "guests" ride the attraction after getting front of the line access (yep, saw that once!) etc. THAT bothers me.

I know there are many people out there who need the pass, I imagine a majority of them would rather not "need" it. There are many disablities & health issues that can not been seen by others, that doesn't mean it's not there.

[paulrae]

Not rude at all! I agree with you also. I think you stated it much more clearer than I could. I didn't mean to imply that people who do not "look" disabled are abusing the GAC. I apologize if that was the way it sounded.



Not need for the apology not taken anyway I understand what your saying :hug:

Its so hard to word without it sounded rude from any end! :)

[nono]

OK, I'll word it harshly:

LOSERS are they who pretend to have an affliction....
May destiny switch their place with those who've been stricken.

Really.

[paulrae]

OK, I'll word it harshly:

LOSERS are they who pretend to have an affliction....
May destiny switch their place with those who've been stricken.

Really.

PMSL:highfive:

Well said..my British reserve I suppose.So thank you

[OttawaWendy]

I am of two minds about all of this.

On the one hand, I am as offended as anyone else about people who are completely non-disabled abusing wheelchairs in order to get preferential treatment.

On the other hand, I use a wheelchair at Disney, and I am sick to death of the looks and comments I get from people because they assume I'm cheating (they make this assumption because I am able to walk, or because I typically use a Disney chair).

I have epidermolysis bullosa (can be found on the web). This is quite rare, and in the worst cases, can cause death. I have the most simple form, which is merely an irritant in that it causes extreme blisters on my skin (mostly feet). I limp sometimes in summer (heat is a big factor) but mostly can manage it by prevention (there is no cure and no treatment). I do desk work, and live in Canada, so this really is manageable for me. (I couldn't serve in the armed forces, or live full-time in Florida).

But at Disney, with its heat and concrete and miles and miles of walking, I just can't do it. The first time we went, I assume I would be fine ("I'll wear good socks, I'll change shoes regularly" I told my DW). I wasn't. We arrived at the Studios and 8 hours later I was in serious pain and walking more slowly than a 1 year old. We got a wheelchair the next morning but I was limping and in pain all week.

But, by using the wheelchair regularly now, I manage so that I have no blisters. Which means that when I get out of the chair, I look like a person who works out and is perfectly healthy. I get a lot of dirty looks and terrible comments.

It is a terrible thing to be in pain on vacation. I don't like having blisters so badly that I avoid drinking because I don't want to walk from the bed to the bathroom. I prefer to avoid blisters so that I can see the Stretching Room in the HM (can't do that using the regular wheelchair entrance), leave my chair at the front of restaurants instead of trying to negotiate past other tables, easily board Disney transportation, and walk from the pool chairs to the pool and back.

But the very reason I need the chair becomes invisible when I use it. I assume there are other disabilities (formally under the ADA or otherwise) where this is the case. A person with a heart condition or MS springs to mind as an example where the person could stand up out of a chair and appear normal, but really need the chair in order to manage their issues.

I do think that those who don't use chairs may be unaware that most attractions at Disney pose no advantage or disadvantage to those in chairs. Some attractions (BTMRR etc.) pose an advantage to those in chairs. A few attractions pose a disadvantage to those in chairs. It all evens out unless you are cherry-picking!

[Kynna]

"Just before I get off my Soap box...I would like to mention the other side of this...People who feel they have to comment (never to my face) I do not look like I need a G.A.C (unsure how to put that without it sounding offense)- I cannot queue or stand for long periods of time - can walk a way and run a little but not theme park distances. I have crohns and sometimes need to make a "quick Escape"

Thanks Paulrae, I have Crohns too and am sad to say I've opted to sit out attractions rather than get the pass purely to avoid comments and glares.

I can be fine one minute and close to passing out the next. There are so many "hidden" diseases out there you may be better off assuming that if someone holds a pass it could be one of them. It saves from being bitter.

I don't mind Disney requiring a Doctors note or something to get a pass. Maybe that would cut down on abuse?

[paulrae]

Kynna your most welcome... I really try very hard not to let Crohn's rule my life..Something a fail to do on a regular basis:yes:

I have had 3 ops in less than 3 years...Out of Hospital last April on Vaction in August...sounds a long time in between but it wasn't for me ..I cannot walk very far due to pains in legs..think it's Reiters...anyway...Seems I now need another op this year! and we have booked our 1st trip home to SSR this October and unless I end up strapped to a bed I will be going..and using a GAC.

Do Try a GAC it will help and tell anyone that throws you a look to ****** off:yes Why sit out becuase of rude people

[bababear]

My heart goes out to all of those having to use a GAC ,,and to the ones who never knew about them .
I traveled with a lady a few years ago that has an intellectual disability and some pretty severe physical assistance needs. This was her once in a life time magical trip.
We didn't have a GAC (although Disney was aware of her needs no one even suggested a GAC). Most shows we were directed to an alternate waiting area--which made loading and unloading the chair easier,,sometimes she had to transfer out of the chair and into a ride --with both myself and another lady's help we were able to do this. I'll still remember HM forever,,,CM's attitude was bad and pushy,,"Cheryl nearly fell on the moving floor and the shameface CM looked very shaken. I found out later this ride can be stopped for 1min to assist people in getting on the ride.
Now here is something we do with the kids in my class every year,,,helps mobile kids relate to kids with disabilities.
An agency brings in equipment and allows the kids to use all the stuff. Imagine being strapped into a wheelchair and saying ok I've had enough but the helper says no you have to stay there. Try writing your name with oven mitts on,,try making a cup of coffee with a sling on.
Yes I see alot of abuse of the GAC but for every abuse I see a family who has come to Disney to experience a magical dream that perhaps elsewhere is not possible. I give alot of kudos to Disney for trying their best to assist families in need.
Ok enough natter natter

Hugs all
Mel

[bababear]

I think we should start a thread for those traveling with a special need

Tips and Ideas for those traveling with someone with special needs.

1# contact Disney and have them forward you written info
2# arrange for a special map of Disney parks locating washrooms and first aid.
etc

just a thought
hugs Mel

P.S
I sure people would have liked me dabing my spots (Shingles) in a more private spot than the washrooms but for the life of me I just couldn't locate the first aid stations.lol

[tomandrobin]

I posted on this thread back in January, after our December trip. My wife used a wheelchair and had a GAC to help when needed. It helped us have a better vacation then if we didn't have it. But because of the comments and looks she received from other "guests", she does not want to get a wheel chair for our trip in 3 weeks.

My wife broke her heal in April of 2007. She has been thru alot since then and is finally starting to walk without a crutch or cane short very short distances. There is no way she can walk more then a block or two, but she is still determined not to go thru the trip dealing with the ignorance and looks from others.

[Niki]

Last June, we went with friends of ours whose child is mildly autistic. Basically, he looks just like any other 5 year old boy. That is, as long as you don't touch him without his permission, don't crowd him and stimulate him constantly. Without these three things, his melt-downs can be as scary as a nuclear bomb. Lucky for us, WDW is full of stimulation, so that was covered. The problem was the crowds and touching. My buddy obtained a note from his MD, and we got a pass. CM were very helpful. We were often placed in a quiet room to wait for the shows. CM's played games with him. Crush even talked to him in Turtle Talk (couldn't understand his response, but Crush just said, "alrighty then") and the kid had a ball. WDW is a wonderful place for kids with stimulation issues, but standing in a crowded line, too near or possibly touching people, would be impossible. We were able to go to the front of the line on almost all of the rides.

Generally, people didn't give us a hard time. We were shoo'd away from the waiting lines and taken in a back entrance. The only time we were hassled was going to Tough to be a Bug. We were told to go into another line, and when we got to the end, we were told to move the rope and walk on in. As we did this, a woman stood in front of us, didn't want to let us pass, and not so politely told us that the end of the line was back at the entrance and that we couldn't enter there. I showed her the pass, and she said she didn't see anyone handicapped. At that point, kiddo's Mom pushed him forward. I said, "Kiddo here is autistic. If you can stand in a crowded line with him and take care of his melt-down, be my guest. We would love to stand in line and enjoy the ride without this particular disaster waiting to happen." At this point, as Mom was steering kiddo toward the lady, he decided to scream a long, loud, high-pitched scream. Rude lady couldn't get out of the way fast enough.

I did get a little upset with one of our own friends that tried to abuse kiddo and his pass. To avoid lines, we all got up and were in the parks at opening. We got on and off the biggies early, so we wouldn't have to worry about crowds. We were basically three families. The other family (stayed at Vistana not with us) always slept in and didn't come to the parks until about 11 a.m.:tsktsk: The only reason we went in June was to accommodate them. Once they got there, they expected kiddo to go on all of the biggies with them again, so they could use the pass and not wait in line. Kiddo did all this like a little trooper, as he liked all of these rides generally. We would have liked to take a longer nap at the room, or see the little rides/attractions like World Showcase, Tom Sawyer Island and Tiki Room. Couldn't really do that, as we had to do the main rides all over again. As they would only allow 6 people to use the pass, those of us that were there in the morning had to stand outside and wait for the others. This was not fair to all of us that cared enough to get our butts outta bed in the morning, and was a little rude to Kiddo's family. After a while, we just decided to go back to the room anyway. Let the late sleepers fend for themselves. I thought this was abusive, and by our own friends, none the less.

Enough rant for now. Long and short of it, not all handicapped people look handicapped to the untrained eye. If your vacation will be better with the pass, I say do it. Forget about the rude guests. Cast members all seemed to understand. Who cares about the others anyway.

[dianeschlicht]

snip
Enough rant for now. Long and short of it, not all handicapped people look handicapped to the untrained eye. If your vacation will be better with the pass, I say do it. Forget about the rude guests. Cast members all seemed to understand. Who cares about the others anyway.

I totally agree. Our DDIL broke her back a few years ago, and can't stand or walk for long periods of time without horrible pain. She uses an ECV when we go do Disney. She is early 30's and looks fit and healthy. I don't believe we ever got nor wanted special privledges with the ECV, since she is unable to ride the "blockbuster" rides anyway with her condition. We did get special seating at the shows to accommodate the ECV (like at Festival of the lion King), but for some, she just left the ECV outside and sat in a regular seat. I know we got some strnge looks too, and a couple of times she put on her back brace even though she didn't need it, just to avoid the stares and comments.

[paulrae]

One thing I have to say is that I never had anyone say a thing to me or throw me a dirty look...must have been looking the other way again..:scratchch..According my dear wife I miss most things :laughing: or was that fail to hear? ah well

[Eeyore Tattoo]

Just how many disabilities are visible anyway?
I don't think I look disabled. I have Fibromyalgia, Chronic Fatigue, & have pain throughout my body all the time, But none of this things are visible. I have a ECV that I have to use at WDW & do walk short distances when I can.
I really don't like smart A** comments like
"Wow, I would sure like one of those cool scooters to get around in"
Or, "Hey, Can I have a ride"
I make the best of my situation & try to not let these comments bug me.
I would gladly give up my scooter for having my health back..
Deb

[bruinfan]

I don't understand why anyone would willingly 'confine' themselves to a wheelchair if they have no such need. We visited in August 2006 with my mother (73 at the time) who has two older artificial knees and by day 5 she was worn out. We finally rented a wheelchair and I got the workout of my life. Don't even ask about the self propelled models - that was a one day disaster!

[Eeyore Tattoo]

I don't understand why anyone would willingly 'confine' themselves to a wheelchair if they have no such need. We visited in August 2006 with my mother (73 at the time) who has two older artificial knees and by day 5 she was worn out. We finally rented a wheelchair and I got the workout of my life. Don't even ask about the self propelled models - that was a one day disaster!

Pushing someone in a WC isn't for the faint of heart! Jusk ask my DH. :hahahaha:
Thats why I have a ECV;)
Deb

[PBB]

Nothing shocks me anymore........

The latest ECV I saw this evening at DHS........a large igloo cooler with an electric engine and handlebars rolling down Hollywood Blvd. Gee, I wonder what type of disability these people have.

This is becoming stupid. What is next ? A sofa with an engine so the couch potatoes don't have to get up at all ?

I know there are a lot of people with hidden disabilities. I have back issues and if I was sitting on a ECV you would look at me like a bum. But there has to be a line drawn somewhere. A cooler with an engine on it. Disgusting.

[MouseMagic]

OH... am I glad this came up.

Okay so I have severe scoliosis that is collapsing and my spine free rotates. I have been avoiding surgery since my impression is I'm not supposed (technically) ride horses if I go through with rods and fusion. I'm not in p/t or such yet (where am I supposed to find time for that??), have avoided injections etc.

Still actively ride horses but on my terms (not professionally anymore) and with prep before and don't usually ride daily (about 3-5 times a week)etc...

This is just to say unless you were looking at me head on and saw my right shoulder 2 inches or so below my left, see the hytrophied muscles on my right and the atrophied muscles on the left....and feel my right leg go out from under me (dead numb, pinched nerve) once I've walked on concrete for more than a half hour....anyhow I'm youngish (31).... I'm not going to look it.

My parents visited MK in July and that was the first time we found out about them. My Dad had bad bad knees and they gave them a try and were excited to tell me about the option.

I'm able I think to handle MK on foot and DHS...but EPCOT and AK....I think I'm going to need the electric chair.

The size of the parks was actually one of the reasons I haven't been back WDW in 8 yrs (after going every year my entire life)...I was afraid I wouldn't be able to walk the parks and didn't want to ruin it for everyone.....

That said, I don't want to look like I'm cheating...because I CAN go on the rides. Is there a place you can park them outside and just wait in line (if I can lean on something like the metal rails I'm okay)??? Do you have to bring the EVC chairs in? I mean if I had to I could get a script for pain meds or something and avoid the chairs (I hate them though, make me feel fuzzy).

Thanks!!!!

Dora

[Eeyore Tattoo]

Dora,
Yes you can park your ECV outside rides & walk in, I do that quite often myself.

And as for the cooler with a engine I would guess that person's disability was alcohol...
Sorry, Just had to say it..
:howudoin::grrrrr::kickingco:doublejum:doublejum

[greenban]

Dora,
Yes you can park your ECV outside rides & walk in, I do that quite often myself.

And as for the cooler with a engine I would guess that person's disability was alcohol...
Sorry, Just had to say it..
:howudoin::grrrrr::kickingco:doublejum:doublejum


Although to play devil's advocate, Alcoholism is just as real a medical disease/disability as any other illness.

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2220/1729837123_f16674d8fb_m.jpg

And for the many MOs from Arkansas:

http://i50.photobucket.com/albums/f312/snarfer1/ArkensasSofa.jpg

-Tony

[Eeyore Tattoo]

Although to play devil's advocate, Alcoholism is just as real a medical disease/disability as any other illness.


I must disagree! Alcoholism is a choice one makes by drinking...
(P.S. Both my in laws were drunks, Both dead now) :violinist

[bababear]

I must disagree! Alcoholism is a choice one makes by drinking...
(P.S. Both my in laws were drunks, Both dead now) :violinist

I beg to differ
loved one and saw her suffer with the addiction most of my life--never was able to stop,,,so sad,,
I married one--well I didn't know this at the time ,,still addicted to the stuff,,,even sadder for my sons
Believe me it is an addiction---a true disease.
Bless anyone who has it and "There Go I But For The Grace Of God I Say"

ok off my soap box

Hugs Ms Natter natter
Mel

[Eeyore Tattoo]

I will agree to disagree..

Sorry for your loved one..
I did watch both in laws drink themselves to early graves..
I agree it is very sad..
Deb

[bababear]

Hi Deb

Guess I'm alittle sensitive ,,worry one of my sons may end up with it,,,seems to run in my family and their dads,,,just ignore me Hon ,,,welcome to M.O.
Luv that Eeyore:eeyore::eeyore::eeyore:

Hugs Mel

[greenban]

I must disagree! Alcoholism is a choice one makes by drinking...
(P.S. Both my in laws were drunks, Both dead now) :violinist

While as a former paramedic/fire fighter and now a worry-wart dad, I absolutley hate and I mean HATE drunk drivers.

But, sorry to tell you, like depression, like cancer, and like a broken leg, Alcoholism is a medical disease. It may have started with a choice, but just as some cocaine users can take it orleave it, others sniff, snort, inject or smoke their lives away.

These people have brains with a different structure, real demonstrable neuronal changes, so they are ill.

-Tony

[Eeyore Tattoo]

It does run in families.
But I still believe that anything that is self induced is not a disease.

Deb

[OttawaWendy]

It does run in families.
But I still believe that anything that is self induced is not a disease.

Deb

I'm not sure what self-induced means. Certainly, genetics and brain chemistry are real - some people are much, much more prone to addictions than others. I am not one of them (well maybe I am - I sometimes feel like I have an eating disorder), at least in terms of alcohol, tobacco, drugs etc., but I am firmly in the "Thank God I don't have to face that" camp. I am very aware that it is far easier for me not to be addicted than it is for some others.

I think humans are enormously complicated organisms, and we make a mistake if we assume that something that is easy for us (staying sober) should be easy for another. It makes as little sense as assuming that if I can pass a grade 9 math exam with 10 hours of studying, someone else should be able to do the same.

I'm not denying that there is still an element of personal responsibility and choice, especially around the consequences (like driving a vehicle or assaulting someone). I just want to be a voice for a middle ground that recognizes both medical disease and personal choice, and an advocate for compassion for those who struggle with this.

Here may be a better comparison. I have a skin disease (epidermolysis bullosa - look it up, I have the simplex subtype). I could, by never walking in any kind of hot weather, have no symptoms ever. I don't ever get through a summer, or a Disney trip, completely symptom-free, even though I work hard to manage this. Does this mean that my symptoms are "self-induced"? Do I not have a disability? And what's interesting is that this brings us full-circle to the start of the thread, because I have to treat myself as disabled and use a wheelchair in order to avoid symptoms, but if I don't have a disability because it's self-induced (i.e. I could make choices to avoid it) then I shouldn't use the chair and then I'd be very disabled (oh, except that it wouldn't count because it was self-induced). So I guess I should just never go to Disney because I'm going to anger someone no matter what I do.

[Eeyore Tattoo]

I'm not sure what self-induced means. Certainly, genetics and brain chemistry are real - some people are much, much more prone to addictions than others. I am not one of them (well maybe I am - I sometimes feel like I have an eating disorder), at least in terms of alcohol, tobacco, drugs etc., but I am firmly in the "Thank God I don't have to face that" camp. I am very aware that it is far easier for me not to be addicted than it is for some others.

I think humans are enormously complicated organisms, and we make a mistake if we assume that something that is easy for us (staying sober) should be easy for another. It makes as little sense as assuming that if I can pass a grade 9 math exam with 10 hours of studying, someone else should be able to do the same.

I'm not denying that there is still an element of personal responsibility and choice, especially around the consequences (like driving a vehicle or assaulting someone). I just want to be a voice for a middle ground that recognizes both medical disease and personal choice, and an advocate for compassion for those who struggle with this.

Here may be a better comparison. I have a skin disease (epidermolysis bullosa - look it up, I have the simplex subtype). I could, by never walking in any kind of hot weather, have no symptoms ever. I don't ever get through a summer, or a Disney trip, completely symptom-free, even though I work hard to manage this. Does this mean that my symptoms are "self-induced"? Do I not have a disability? And what's interesting is that this brings us full-circle to the start of the thread, because I have to treat myself as disabled and use a wheelchair in order to avoid symptoms, but if I don't have a disability because it's self-induced (i.e. I could make choices to avoid it) then I shouldn't use the chair and then I'd be very disabled (oh, except that it wouldn't count because it was self-induced). So I guess I should just never go to Disney because I'm going to anger someone no matter what I do.

You are right, you have a condition brought on by your body, a genetic disease not by drugs or drinking.
All I am trying to get across is that drinking & drugs are avoidable & a addiction instead of a disease.
I have a connective tissue disease, CFS & am in pain 90% of the time so I understand illness very well.
I also 100% agree with your statement that some people are "much more prone to addictions than others."
This has turned into a very interesting discussion, and thanks everyone for keeping in friendly even if we don't all agree:D
Deb

[glypnir]

1. as some know, my wife's toe was in bad shape last we went to WDW. So she had and ECV - after my first day workout pushing the wheelchair - and it worked fairly well. She did frequently get out of it and stand in line.

I was seen driving it sometimes, as I was the valet. She'd drive it to the exit from the park, and I'd then drive it back to the rental place and turn it in. At Epcot, especially, it's a pretty long way.

Sometimes, I'd go get it from the input holding area for an attraction and bring it around to the exit. It was fun. If I was just a bit lazier, I'd rent one just to carry me around so I don't get so tired. :whatababy

2. Disney does a great job for those of us who are insulation gifted and vertically challenged in the positive direction. I am somewhere a bit north of 300 pounds, and about 6'4" tall on a good day. And even when I weigh 200 pounds, my shoulders are still very broad, and my chest is deep. I don't fit on lots of rides at Six Flags. I fit on everything so far at WDW. Pretty easily.

[BoardwalkMomma]

Yes, it just a sad fact that there will be some that will, not only, abuse the rules, but gloat in it. You have to just shake your head and imagine what it must be like to live such a petty life.

Unfortuantely there are a host of reasons that people may look like they are abusing when they are, in fact, not. I count my blessings each time I take my kids to Disney that my son does not need a wheelchair, yet. Lord willing, he won't ever. But he has a heart defect that he does not allow to slow him down one little bit. He's subborn that way. Other than a couple of rides that mom won't let him ride, he rules The World... and stands in lines. I am so glad that he can still stand in lines and walks all over Walt's acres.

So, again, what must it be like to live such a petty life that you want to break a rule designed to aid people that really wish they didn't need it at all?

:idontgeti

[dvchammer]

last year my wife and I went to WDW when she was recovering from a broken leg and I was recovering from surgery. We could both walk, but not for too long before it became painful.

So we rented one ECV and switched off when on of us got too tired to walk.
A lot of people gave us "the look" when we would switch.

They didn't know what was going on and I really didn't care. We were both able to enjoy the parks and resorts. I tried one trip when she was in a cast with a push wheelchair - talk about a workout!