Analysis for DVC pt. usage for DCL -

[gblast123]

Let us look at a current 3 day cruise after the first weekend in Jan.

For a Cat. 11, inside room, it is 67 points per person. For two cabins with 4 people, that would be 268 points. In addition, you are charged $75 non-refundable exchange fee for trading in your points.

Take a look at www.vacationstogo.com.

They indicate DCL prices of $880 per cabin for the January inside cabin prices (except for Jan 3, which is more points anyway).

Total for two cabins is $1760.

If you subtract the $75 exchange fee, for 268 points, you are getting roughly $6.30 per point.

If you sold the 268 points $10 per point, that would be $2680. Subtracting $1760, you would net $920. That buys a lot of Disney park tickets!!

It gets worse. When you book using DVC points, they are converted into Reservation points. Even if you cancel, you still only have reservation points!!! You can only use them for the Disney Collection, ie. DCL, and the other things like adventerer, etc. You cannot use them for DVC anymore.

Thus, you have far more flexibility if you pay in cash.

I have been on several Disney cruises but have always paid cash. They tend to be more expensive than other cruises but they are worth it.

I invite any comments, etc.

[glypnirsgirl]

This was a really timely post for me. I have been looking at buying either into a new DVC contract or a HGVC, Marriott or Starwood (Hyatt just does not seem to have the resorts in the right places for me). One of the considerations on the comparison has been the Advenure Collection and DCL that Disney offers. I had no idea I would be taking such a bath to use the points for DCL - I suspect that the same is true of the Adventure Collection also - and I am interested in the Costa Rica Eco tour and the African Safari. I think I need to do the same type of analysis to figure this out!!!

Thanks for the heads up. :veryconfu
Elaine

[gblast123]

Well...DCL is the best trade for DVC that Disney offers. With other Collection trades, you are even worse off.

In general, just take the number of points that they require, multiply by $10, then compare that it the price you have to pay for cash. It is astonishing how much more you pay if you are using points.

Even with DVC members only cruises, you can pay cash....much better than using points.

Remember, Disney is a FOR PROFIT corporation!!

[idratherbeinwdw]

I think it's been said before but it bears repeating, especially for those new to the DVC program: The best use of your DVC points is for staying at a DVC resort.

Not everyone wants to go to the trouble of renting out their points, so they are willing to take the loss. But for sure, you do better $$ when you rent out the points and pay cash for anything other than DVC resort stays.

[Mrs.Monk]

Hey OP, I found your post. Thanks!

For the rest of you, I'm one of the idiots :grouchodi that has used DVC points for cruises in the past. We're at a point in our lives where I have more time share options than vacation time. Hopefully soon.... my schedule will be as flexable as my DH.

With our other timeshare.... we can get great purchase price on cruises. Since lurking on this board... .I think I'd feel more comfortable renting out points now. Maybe I'll give it a whirl for our next Alaskan cruise.

With respect ot Adventures by Disney... I;m not sure that they're a bad use of DVC points. I'm going to have to go check that out.


ITA with Mar..... using DVC points for DVC Resorts is the best use of points.

[mountainjourno]

Sorry, but I must disagree with your maths.

I did not pay $10 per point - I could make a profit by selling them for that much if I wanted the hassle, but in my case, I paid $83 per point for 50 years, so 83/50 = 1.66 per point. I then also pay around $4.2 per point for annual fees, so let's say a total of $5.9 per point. So for those same cabins, 268 points x 5.9 = 1581.2. So even when we put the $75 charge on, it's only 1656.2.

Some people here paid considerably less for their points than me, others are paying a bit more (but not enough to make a big difference - if you paid the most, $103 per point for 50 years, you would still be at $6.26 per point including annual fees ).

For me, there's no question it is worth it. Yes, I could sell points and try to profit, but at the moment, I prefer simplicity. I mean really - if I wanted to get the most value out of my DVC points, I'd sell all of them every year!

Just wanted to put that perspective out there. We love DCL and will keep using our points on them.

[Carol]

Disney cruises increase in price the closer it gets to departure. The analyses look different depending on timing.

Also, while I agree that the most economical use of DVC points are using them to stay at a DVC resort, using them at some non-DVC options isn't necessarily a bad deal. It comes down to how you value your points.

Some value DVC points at the price they could get in the rental market (and usualy they do not factor the value of their time into the equation. Of course that could be minimal for established, experienced renters).

Some value DVC points at what they cost. Perhaps they use a formula that divides initial cost by years in the contract and then add in dues. So if you bought in for $65 per point and had 42 years of points that's $1.55 + MF or about $6.05 a point.

Some value their DVC points at whatever the current maintenance fees happen to be for that year. They consider the initial cost to be a "sunk" cost and wish to minimize further out of pocket costs for vacations.

So for the example given above, if a member valued their points at the MF level, two cabins would cost 268 * $4.50 (estimating the MF - some are more, most are less right now) + $75 = $1281. That's not such a bad deal, IMHO.

The price for those who value at cost isn't so awful, either.

Obviously, you could do better renting, but many do not want to bother.

Just another point of view.

[Daitcher]

Nice analysis Gblast. I also agree with your analysis of the OKW extension offer by the way.

There is no question that it is a better deal to rent points and pay cash. BUT..... the same way I hated when I was atacked for renting my points as I saw fit, I have to say people can and should use their points as they see fit. By all means use those points anyway you want. Splurge, take the cruise, use them at a concierge collection resort, whatever. These points are yours so use them to enjoy the membership to its fullest.

What Gblast has done is shown those who want to be frugal with their points that renting to pay for the other options is almost always the best way to go financially.



DAVE

[gblast123]

I want to respond to all of the above.

This was purely an economic analysis. It was not intended in any way to make a value judgment as to whether it is "good or bad" or to tell you how to use your DVC points.

The thing that I wanted to emphasize that there is a very real cost for using DCL points for a cruise. I went through this mental exercise in order to evaluate for myself the "cost" of using points for a cruise.

It is very convenient to simply tell Disney to use points for a cruise. But there is a very real cost associated with that convenience. If, after evaluating my analysis and, of course, doing your own analysis, you want that convenience, you should absolutely do what is best for you.

First, with regard to the math...

Aren't you are leaving out a few important items in your post. How about the interest you are losing every year on the money that you paid for your points? At 5% on $20,000.00, (ie 200 pts X $100 pp), would be about $1000 per year. Even if you paid $50 per point, that is still an additional $500 per year that would be a "cost" on your yearly allocation of points.

I could go into other things but that is not what this analysis is all about.

Rather, this analysis was based on assumptions that were as favorable to DCL as possible!! If you analyse this based on a more realistic scenario results in a much worse result, economically for the person who uses points for a cruise:thumbsway

Let's take a look at what is most likely to happen.

A) I used $10 per point, which is quite conservative. If you look at the various posts, many people are getting more, and some of the professional renters are getting as much as $14 per point.

B) If there were only two people with one cabin, the numbers get much worse on a per point basis since the exchange fee is only spread between two people instead of 4.

C) As you go to the more expensive cabins, the numbers get worse, I chose the least expensive for this analysis.

D) In Jan. the exchange fee will be $95, not $75.

Also, how hard would it be to transfer points for $9 per point? I think I can safely say that if you posted that in the trade thread, it would not last for more than a few hours...not only that, but you would only have to make 3 or 4 telephone calls to make it happen. Maybe about 15 min of your time.

It's only my opinion, but since I was brought up poor, I would take the 15 min to enable me to have an extra FEW HUNDRED dollars to spend on my loved ones.

To top it off, if you use DVC points, you have more restrictions than using cash. My view is that you are penalized, rather than being rewarded, for using DVC points since anyone using cash has more flexibility and LESS hassle if there is a problem or if you simply change your mind. That, even ignoring the economics, seems to be very unjust!!

Like I said above, this is some additional information that you may want to use in your own evaluation of how you use your own points.

[Muushka]

I usually do respond on threads when new or perspective members ask if using DVC points for DCL is a good value.
People don't usually bring up that extremely negative aspect of using points and that is what was mentioned above about the cancellation policy.

It gets worse. When you book using DVC points, they are converted into Reservation points. Even if you cancel, you still only have reservation points!!! You can only use them for the Disney Collection, ie. DCL, and the other things like adventerer, etc. You cannot use them for DVC anymore.

People rarely mention this when giving all the positive aspects. But to me this is huge. If I pay cash I can cancel up to 90 days prior to sailing without any penalty. Why is it if you use points they do not return these points from whence they came without penalty? We usually book our cruises way in advance. You never know what can happen.

And I have read too many 'distressed points for sale' ads for the poor guy whose wife got pregnant or changed jobs and cannot take a vacation for 6 more months.:tearsaref

[mickeycrazy]

This is helpful info since we are wanting to take a cruise. Thanks for giving us some things to think about.

[gblast123]

People rarely mention this when giving all the positive aspects. But to me this is huge. If I pay cash I can cancel up to 90 days prior to sailing without any penalty. Why is it if you use points they do not return these points from whence they came without penalty? We usually book our cruises way in advance. You never know what can happen.

And I have read too many 'distressed points for sale' ads for the poor guy whose wife got pregnant or changed jobs and cannot take a vacation for 6 more months.:tearsaref

You bring up an extremely valid point, the non-monetary "penalty" for using DVC points, which I did not adequately emphasize.

If you are really interested in using your points, make the reservation with cash, then later, convert to using DVC points. However, only do so in the very last minute, ie 91 days prior to the cruise or 91 days before the last day of your use year. That way, if anything goes wrong prior to that time, you get a full refund and you can still use your points for something else.

It would make more sense if you got some sort of cash discount for going on the DCL cruise, just like using the DVC resorts for cash. However, such is not the case!!

[Muushka]

You bring up an extremely valid point, the non-monetary "penalty" for using DVC points, which I did not adequately emphasize.

If you are really interested in using your points, make the reservation with cash, then later, convert to using DVC points. However, only do so in the very last minute, ie 91 days prior to the cruise or 91 days before the last day of your use year. That way, if anything goes wrong prior to that time, you get a full refund and you can still use your points for something else.

It would make more sense if you got some sort of cash discount for going on the DCL cruise, just like using the DVC resorts for cash. However, such is not the case!!

I thought you did a great job of enphasizing it! :blueflowe

I also like your idea of booking for cash and converting to points at the last minute. I will probably never use points for a cruise, but it is a great idea.

[mountainjourno]

If you are really interested in using your points, make the reservation with cash, then later, convert to using DVC points. However, only do so in the very last minute, ie 91 days prior to the cruise or 91 days before the last day of your use year. That way, if anything goes wrong prior to that time, you get a full refund and you can still use your points for something else.



That's a very risky idea, unless you are happy to pay cash regardless. There are limited cabins available to DVC and at 91 days you might well and truly miss out on your choice! I would only do this if I really didn't care whether or not I paid cash or points (and in that case, I probably wouldn't change anyway).

I also disagree with it being "easy" to rent out points and just a few phone calls. I found it a very stressful experience, taking up hours of my time in the end and with a lot of angst on both sides of the equation. Not everyone feels safe about sending money to a person they've never met in another country (I'm in Canada) with no guarantee their room will be waiting for them. I rented my points because I was unable to use them, but am happy to leave point-renting to the more experienced point-renters on the board, and will only do it again if I absolutely have to. (And will probably just pike out and use Daddio's service!)

But in the end, really - I think cruising with DVC points is a good deal. Is it the best possible way to use points? No - but to me, that's like people going on the Disney Dining Plan and ordering the most expensive items on every menu, even if they don't feel like that item, just so that they can get the "best value". The reality is, using points is cheaper than, or equal to booking using cash, but for many members - they've already outlaid the cash for their memberships and probably don't want to pay thousands more for a cruise when they can just use their prepaid points.

Anyway, just my thoughts! :)

[gblast123]

1) That's a very risky idea, unless you are happy to pay cash regardless. There are limited cabins available to DVC and at 91 days you might well and truly miss out on your choice! I would only do this if I really didn't care whether or not I paid cash or points (and in that case, I probably wouldn't change anyway).

2) ... (And will probably just pike out and use Daddio's service!)
3) ... The reality is, using points is cheaper than, or equal to booking using cash, but for many members - they've already outlaid the cash for their memberships and probably don't want to pay thousands more for a cruise when they can just use their prepaid points.

Anyway, just my thoughts! :)

You have made a number of statements that are most interesting but in general, you are only partially correct. I will go throught them point by point.

1) This is mostly incorrect. I just called DVC about DCL. As long as you have a cash reservation with a cabin number, you can ALWAYS use your DVC points to "take the reservation over" at any time until the cabin is fully paid for, ie - there is a deposit on the cabin. You will get the cash deposit back. But there are some caveats. If you have a "room guarantee", and not a cabin number, then DVC cannot be used. (Although specialty crusies like Panama Canal, they do let you use DVC points with only a "room guarantee".) However, DVC points cannot book "room guarantee" in the beginning anyway, so no loss there.

2) I am very familiar with Daddio's service. It is excellent. He takes care of everything, pays you $11 per point, no hassle, no fuss....what could be easier? Again, you are helping me make my argument. Also, you left out how easy it is to transfer points. That is a simple telephone conference call to Disney. For $9 per point, you will be able to get anyone to take care of all the details for you.

3) This is not consistent with Para #2. If Daddio is giving you $11 per point, how is DCL the same price as using DVC points, where Disney is giving you less than than $7 per point?

I think that what you are saying, in all your wisdom, is that giving these points to Disney at less than $7 per point gives you more comfort than giving these points to someone like Daddio for $11 per point. I am sure someone sees the logic in that...I don't.

If you look at 7 day cruises with a Cat 9 (Oceanview) is a minimum of about 300 pts for 2 people for Value season. If you take the difference from what Disney gives you and Daddio, that is more than $4.

$4 X 300 pts =$1200 plus $95 exchange fee = $1295.00 difference!!!

Like I said, I am not wealthy enough to forgo that type of money, even if it cost me a few days of aggravation.

Your arguments remind me of an old saying....You can pee on my head if you want to, just don't try to convince me that it is only raining.

[Muushka]

You can pee on my head if you want to, just don't try to convince me that it is only raining.:thumbsup:

[mountainjourno]

Your arguments remind me of an old saying....You can pee on my head if you want to, just don't try to convince me that it is only raining.

Wow. That's rude and rather unkind of both you and Muushka. Sorry I tried to offer a different perspective and dared to disagree with anyone. I believed there may be some people on Mouseowners who might be new to DVC and would want to hear all the sides so that they could make the decision that is right for them. I prefer to tackle the issue, not the person.

As for the rest of your argument - thanks for the clarification about DVC and transferring for points, I had been told otherwise (having booked and gone on two cruises using DVC ). But I'll leave that to everyone else to investigate when they make their bookings because these things change.

I will continue using my points for cruises anyway, because it will always be better to sell my points and book at one of the value resorts than use my points to stay at a Deluxe, but I bought them to enjoy vacations, not make a profit. You say you don't have that kind of money, so I suggest you simply sell your points every year and use the money to book at Values - you could save thousands. For me - I'm just satisfied with my decision to buy DVC for vacations and could care less how you use your points.

If you feel the need to argue with me further, can I ask that you stick to the topic and leave your toilet analogies for grade school?

[Muushka]

mountainjourno, I thought the saying was funny. I had never heard it before.
Peace...:tapedshut

Hate to bring this up now, but.....

We booked a 7 day Magic for 9/27/08 cat 5 fo 2 adults for
$2632 minus a $300 refund when we return. The DVC Member Cruise for 2008 will cost 382 points for 2 adults, cat 5. :tapedshut

[mountainjourno]

mountainjourno, I thought the saying was funny. I had never heard it before.
Peace...:tapedshut

Hate to bring this up now, but.....

We booked a 7 day Magic for 9/27/08 cat 5 fo 2 adults for
$2632 minus a $300 refund when we return. The DVC Member Cruise for 2008 will cost 382 points for 2 adults, cat 5. :tapedshut

No worries.

I agree - the DVC member cruises are waaaaay more expensive than the normal cruises. I haven't been on a member cruise, but I'm guessing that (judging from their popularity) there must be a lot of extras to make it worthwhile. And given so many people keep going back, I'd love to hear what those extras are - maybe I'm missing out on something! :)

We always do the 7-day cruises and find them way more economical than the three or four-day, or member cruises. (But then - we have to fly a long way to get to them, so we'd always prefer the longer cruises anyway!)

[gblast123]

Wow. That's rude and rather unkind of both you and Muushka. Sorry I tried to offer a different perspective and dared to disagree with anyone. I believed there may be some people on Mouseowners who might be new to DVC and would want to hear all the sides so that they could make the decision that is right for them. I prefer to tackle the issue, not the person.

If you feel the need to argue with me further, can I ask that you stick to the topic and leave your toilet analogies for grade school?


I apologize for your being offended by my post. I was just trying to make a little joke. I would like to extend an olive branch and get this thread back on track.

I wasn't trying to "argue". Rather, I felt that you were posting information that was incorrect and internally not logical.

If you want to say...and you are...that despite the financial and other limitations, you are making a conscious decision to use your points as you see fit, it is your right to do so and I applaud your decision and take no issue with that stance. However, if you give a rationale based on incorrect and illogical assumptions, I can and will point that out to you.

I am a great fan of Disney cruises, even though they cost more than other cruises with comparable routes and amenities. I have been on the 3 day and 11 day Mediterranian already and I am booked on the Panama Canal cruise.

It seems we may be misunderstanding each other with regard to the motivations behind my original post and my responses to yours.

I am concerned with Disney since, having joined DVC and bought LOTS of points and spent thousands of dollars, I am treated far worse by Disney BECAUSE I am using DVC points for DCL than total strangers who just pay cash.

I would have thought that being DVC members would give us a discount of some sort because of our financial commitment to the Disney organization. To come to the realization that the opposite was true, in a financial sense (if you use my assumptions, that is), well....it was disappointing.

Not only that, but the additional DVC restrictions (which the cash paying customers don't have to put up with) was putting salt in the financial wound.

I hope that if enough people complain, then maybe...just maybe..., Disney might decide to do more than they have been doing to help people use the DVC points for cruises.

I don't remember the exact quote but it goes something like this, "Reasonable people adjust to their surroundings, Unreasonable people force their surroundings to adjust to them. Thus, all progess and change in the world is the result of people being unreasonable".

[gblast123]

mountainjourno, I thought the saying was funny. I had never heard it before.
Peace...:tapedshut

Hate to bring this up now, but.....

We booked a 7 day Magic for 9/27/08 cat 5 fo 2 adults for
$2632 minus a $300 refund when we return. The DVC Member Cruise for 2008 will cost 382 points for 2 adults, cat 5. :tapedshut

Disney rewarded the loyal DVC members who used points for this Members only cruise (not including the $300 refund) by paying them $6.65 per point. ($5.86 per point if you include the $300 refund).

(2632 -95 (booking fee) divided by 382 if you want the formula.)

You will get the same benefits and priviledges as those that paid with points, except that if you decide to sell your 382 points at $10 per point, you will have an extra $1283 in your pocket to buy massages, shore excursions, an additional stay in the parks, etc!!

Alternatively, you could just sell 264 points to pay cash for the cruise, use the remaining 118 points for a week in the Beach Club Villas (studio) plus the $300 credit left over for park tickets, meal plan, etc. BTW, you would still have 14 points left to bank, etc :thumbsup: .

That's what I call having your cake, eating it, and tossing in a banana split with a double helping of whipped cream!!

I am curious, what are you going to do with the points that you don't use?

[Muushka]

I LOVE banana splits!

There is one teeny tiny point that you are missing in your calculations. You will love this. The price I am paying is for a 7 day cruise. The DVC member cruise is for 4 days (I didn't mention that in my post, sorry). Calculate that! :thumbsup:

What will I do with my extra points? We are going to stay in a GV (hopefully, if we can book it) and have a family reunion the week before the cruise. I would rather give our points to friends and family than give them to DVC. :corn:

[epicureangirl]

You will get the same benefits and priviledges as those that paid with points, except that if you decide to sell your 382 points at $10 per point, you will have an extra $1283 in your pocket to buy massages, shore excursions, an additional stay in the parks, etc!!

Wow, I was on the fence about renting some BVC points out to finance a Disney Cruise (instead of going on points)... but this post has pushed me to the dark-side. :darthvade

Massage, you say? Excursion, you say? .... Throw in a couple of new DVC pins and I am SO there!

Thanks!

[erikthewise]

During certain times of the year, when cruises are expensive, using points can be a reasonable option, in the sense of getting $8+ per point. But when there are good cash prices on DCL cruises, using points is a terrible waste, costing almost twice as much as paying cash or more.

:rant on: Everyone, do yourself a favor and just accept $10 per point as a reasonable value for your points. There is more than one valid way to value your points, but more than half of the analyses I see would be shot down like a Chinese kite in a hailstorm on an Accounting 101 exam. :rant off:

[greenban]

Since I and many others get $14.00 per point, renting makes lots of sense. For our last OKW stay (GV), I paid the cash rate (member discount) for Friday and Saturday nights and rented the required # of points to a guest. The difference basically paid for our DDP!

So, I would do the same for cruises, when we finally go!

-Tony

[NYDVC]

One thing no body has mentioned is that using points require you to go through MS for lots of cruise details. We did a cruise on points an every question I had they made me go through MS who in turn called the cruise company. I personally dont like having a middle man all the time, especially when MS seemed pretty ignorant about DCL information. like excursions, etc.

[DVCfamily]

I noticed the same thing some time ago. The value of a point with DCL and Adventures by Disney made no sense given the dollar value of renting points to someone who wanted to visit Disney World. Disney World is really where the point value is, nowhere else (that I have seen so far). Like you, I don't look at this as a negative. To the contrary, the versitility to rent my points and pay cash for a vacation (Disney related or not) is fantastic. Last year we rented 800 points for $10 each, took a Cruise (DCL) and still had money left over for a new HDTV!!!

Gotta Love that Mouse!!

[Daitcher]

I am concerned with Disney since, having joined DVC and bought LOTS of points and spent thousands of dollars, I am treated far worse by Disney BECAUSE I am using DVC points for DCL than total strangers who just pay cash.

I would have thought that being DVC members would give us a discount of some sort because of our financial commitment to the Disney organization. To come to the realization that the opposite was true, in a financial sense (if you use my assumptions, that is), well....it was disappointing.

I hope that if enough people complain, then maybe...just maybe..., Disney might decide to do more than they have been doing to help people use the DVC points for cruises. .



ITA with all of this. Why is it that cash customers get the better of DVC OWNERS on almost all accounts? We ALL need to start asking that question of DVC management.

Also, CHOOSING to use your points as you see fit is your right. I have no problem with someone saying they splurged and used points for the "exchange" options. I do see a problem with trying to rationalize or even stating that it is a good deal. I'm glad to see that Gblast has set the record straight in this thread with or without the use of funny sayings.

p.s. Gblast are you the same gbalst from the Dis who took a lot of heat from the anti-rental faction? If so, nice to see you here on MO.


DAVE